Removing Malfunctioning AI as a Gamemode

[Peppermint]

Like..some malf players are great. Sonic, Kryes come to mind. But man do so many others suck. Not sure what should be done, but something def should be to avoid nightmare rounds. My issue with it is that the average malf round is akin to some of the worst round types of any other mode, which takes away from the fact that it can go the other way as well.

[Chada1]

It would be okay in my opinion to remove the Malf AI gamemode and instead just have it appear in combination antag round types, like Uprising/etc where you have Rev + Malf IIRC?

Malf as it is has a lot of issues driving a round by itself, it's just two robots and an AI trying to have the same round presence and impact of 5+ traitors/lings, a mob of brain controlled people and vampires, or an entire crew of revolutionaries/loyalists. But if you add more Antags to the mix, and take the pressure off of two or at max three borgs and the AI, that disappears completely.

That's the main problem with the gamemode, it's completely unscaled towards the population, 100% unscaled. There is no scaling at all anywhere, it's the same regardless of if it's 20 people or 100. With lower populations Malf is better, since it's easier to involve more of the crew, but when you have two 'borgs and an AI trying to involve 80 people, yeah nope.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Chada1

[geeves]

A problem with malf is its supreme power, as well as the fact that it has no variance whatsoever.

The end goal is almost always to pop delta and get combat borgs, which is incredibly boring.

Even if you go the route of borgifying people, it's still on the road to delta.

Narratively, delta could be cool, but the whole thing has been overdone to the point that I just want to roleplay something of actual value, not repeat the same "oh i gotta kill the AI so i can continue having fun" over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

[furrycactus]

Malf is, in my opinion, one of the worst gamemodes that we still have in rotation, right next to changeling. 

There are absolutely a handful of good malf AI players, but I can basically count all of those on just one hand. Practically every single other malf AI round always goes one of two ways. Either they stealth hack every APC and then go to delta at 1:30, or we get mass door bolting, mass door electrification, siphoned rooms, gravity disable spams, APC bombings, engine grief, recall spams, all that fun stuff like half an hour in. Sometimes there might be an outlier that springs for the borg machine instead, and then borgs run around stun ganking people and dragging them to the Build-A-Bot Workshop, which generally sucks an incredible amount for the victim, as being forced to become an antag is rarely enjoyable for several people.

It's not a fun gamemode, not even remotely. Please remove it from rotation.

[WickedCybs]

Removing it from secret would be neat. Bad things happen, AI starts trying to kill people, conflict, the inevitable delta or shuttle call. Overdone, poisoned by malfs who want to "win". I have experienced some very good malf rounds in the past but lately I don't think it has any place in secret.

 

[Cnaym]

Swiping in with a small solution here, make it scale better. Let's say three people need to be readied up for malf, one AI and at least one borg.

Reducing the damage from shocked doors would be another step to allow the playerbase to touch doors more often before salting in dead chat enjoy the round longer. Right now it's rather on the high end of damages. Instead of large scale APC explosions, I would love some small camera explosions to punish the unga people valued members of the crew. Maybe give an ability that creates camera traps, so you should use ranged options against them.

I frequently find malf on lowpop to be rather great, while high pop always has a couple people rushing the escalation within a minute or the AI going silent. Removing it from secret would not really fix the mode itself though.

5 hours ago, geeves said:

A problem with malf is its supreme power, as well as the fact that it has no variance whatsoever.

From command and staff view point, the problem with malf really is the inability to come up with either a good gimmik, or the crew completely unwilling to go along with one. More RP focused tools might help with that, but ingame it seems to be a playerbase issue more than a mechanical one.

The example of Ninja + Malf comes to mind, when the AI is hiding behind other antags, to not be silent but in concept still going the full stealth malf round for a greentext instead of making the round enjoyable.

[Butterrobber202]

Removing Malf would be lame, it’s a great tool to make fun narratives because it’s hard to get that kind of negotiation power as a standard Antag.

 

honestly I 100% blame 7/10 bad Malf rounds on Sec going “oh no AI bad fetch the Ion” without even giving the gimmick a chance. Malf WORKS as long as you are creative with it. 

[NewOriginalSchwann]

Yeah, malf's great! I love gimmicks like stunning people and drag them through the tg-holdover cyborgification machine with no buildup (I've seen it happen to people after waking up from cryo), or using gravity slam on the AI upload chamber every ten seconds (pictured). I also love getting bolted into rooms that mysteriously begin venting, code delta at 1:59:00, and spamming recall on the emergency shuttle. Great fun!

 

I would rather play any mode other than malf. Even worse is that it feels like the one full round I can normally play on weekdays is generally malf, and generally awful malf. It is absolute suffering. I have had one, perhaps two, good malf rounds that stand out of a veritable sea of garbage. I despise malfunction - it's the same awful song-and-dance every time I experience it: why are these doors shocked, please step onto the conveyor belt, robotics the borgs are acting weird, atmospherics disable AI control of the O2 loop, this unit has no laws, etc etc etc. Malf has soured my view of AI so much that, frankly, if a full removal of AI suggestion appeared I would probably support it.

 

Fun Fact: My second round ever on Aurora was a malfunction round, and I was randomly APC gibbed at 1:45:00 while walking through a hallway. I then quit the server and did not return for almost eight months.

[Naelynn]

Hello, I would like to offer my point of view here, as well as my proposed solution which I believe to be elegant and effective way of solving the issue at hand.

The issue: Malf is a hated game mode due to the abuse of it's mechanics by most of the players who end up as a malfunctioning ai. Most notable of these is the Apc bomb spam and Shuttle Recall. 

So, how to solve this?

Lock Malf AND Ai both behind a command whitelist.

Yes, really, as simple as that.

Cons of this solution:
Harder for new people to learn ai and learn how command talks on their radio channel.
.... that's it for cons that I can think of.

Pro's:
Command Whitelist players are eligible to have their whitelist stripped for poor command play.
Ai COMMANDS cyborgs. This makes sense.
Whitelist players have proven that they have good grasp on rp and are more likely to have good gimmicks than Joe Average because of this.
Command Whitelist players are used to having to monitor multiple radio channels and are more likely to be able to keep up with the demands of Ai play than Joe Average.
It is a small enough change that will allow the staff team to see if the issue is [as I believe it is] abuse of malf mechanics and insufficient rp, or malfunction ai game mode itself.

Thoughts

[sonicgotnuked]

There has been countless arguments as this stems from a general problem with AI itself. Given malfunction and its abilities, it's really easy for players to get carried away with its abilities. Machine overload is horrid for this fact.

 

While I understand most the arguments, it will significantly make other antag types more common. Do I support whitelisting AI behind command? My main concern is the impact of some of our really reputable AI mains. We either have to make a grace factor for them to bypass the whitelist or have a grandfather clause for individuals who played AI before having the ability to prove themselves to staff. This all will result in a decrease of AI activity.

 

Another concern I have is the fact malfunction serves as our synthetic antag type. Cult is base building. Ling is biological horror. Vampire is manipulation and physiological. We need to have a replacement in mind or severely buff traitor borg to fill this empty role. Currently, traitor borgs are extremely weak in comparison with every other antag you may encounter as they fall like paper and rely on RNG to live when components start breaking. The loss of camera, actulators, or power cell are all three seperate things that will cause a borg to fail.

 

The issue is the difficulty of malfunction. In the hands of a good player, they can create very interesting gimmicks and promote some really interactive role play. This goes both ways though as it is common for the crew to be completely refusive towards any progression the AI attempts to create. This common stereotype that every malfunction is bad is a very unhealthy standard; promoting the heavier use of mechanics. 

 

Malfunction is the only game mode with a month time lock on the server. Malf is a solo antag and carries the entire weight of the round on their shoulders. 

These are my thoughts on the matter. 

[Pratepresidenten]

As much as I'd love a command lock, I doubt it will happen.

But as it has been said by a few in the thread here, I agree that it would be more beneficial if malf was removed as a standalone gamemode and maybe put up for draft in all traitor-able gamemodes, as normal malf. We already pinch people for playing superantags, so malf should not be any different.

Remove pressure off of the solomalf, and allow for more fluid, cooperative gimmicks utilizing the malfs massive arsenal of abilities with their fellow antags.

[furrycactus]

As much as I want to see the gamemode completely stripped from our codebase, I'd be satisfied with removing it as a solo gamemode and melding it with another antag type.

[Cnaym]

I love how most of the issues presented should be ahelped, but rarely are.

Before malf it was ling, before that it was merc, before that it was traitor.

It's never the gamemode that is broken, it's the playerbase.

Salting on the forums will not fix them issues, ahelping them might, playing malf yourself to offer some better rounds would be even better, but nobody does that.

APC explosions can be nerfed, so can the gravity slam. Cooldowns on a lot of stuff would make malf a bit better. Removing the shuttle recall and delta would solve it, so that the entitled part of our playerbase can RP in their department while the rest engages the antag and gimmik of the round.

I honestly enjoyed it when a ton of people went to cryo and salted in dead chat (because I can mute that ^^) that the roundtype is malf before even waiting for any kind of gimmik or interaction. Made the rounds less populated and by extension a lot better. Maybe giving solo malf a top of 20 readied players could help with removing it from high pop as solo antag.

If you want to enjoy antags though, both sides should scale back their need to win a ton. That is what ruins rounds.

[Scheveningen]

Literally remove malf AI as a game mode. There is no developer here that will bother to fix it for the better. The other antagonists -- vampire for instance -- work because their playstyle is not centered around bashing people's face into the wall plating. They have abilities to defend themselves and then make roleplay through other creative narrative means. Almost everything the malf has in terms of abilities is connected to it doing violence.

Violence = killing people = 1 or more characters who are put out of the round and thus reducing the variety/amount of roleplayers in the round.

Why have a game mode in the rotation that isn't being actively maintained and changed by a developer who cares about the game mode being a good fit for the server?

APC overloading is OP as shit and cannot be counterplayed if the crew is forced to siege the AI core.

Gravity overloading is also OP as shit and can be spammed constantly for free maiming and damage. For those who deal with lag on a daily basis (i.e., anyone who isn't next door to the German Hetzner server), they cannot type or hit the "rest" button in time to escape that. Magboots also aren't common.

It's extremely easy to render the initial AI foyer uninhabitable, since all that is needed is to break the glass and then - haha only EVA dudes allowed.

In cases where there is a skeleton crew, very little security or etc., the only resort a wily chief engineer has to deal with the AI is to zoop down to the AI core from above after cutting through an amount of walls and then either targeting the main AI core APC or going straight for the kill in the regards of the AI. Depends on how pressed for time one is.

The point, of course, is that the AI is overloaded with extremely powerful tools that permits them to powergame to achieve their mechanical end goal of nuking the station (inversely, the crew has to powergame even harder to kill them, such as with the 'drill through the ceiling' strat. Because that is literally all anyone does, they go straight for code delta tech path because???? Well, who knows. If I had to guess, my strongest hunch would be that not even antag mains like malf very much and they want to end the round too. Comes at the cost of making for a very shit round for everyone else, though. The fact malf and cult still have abilities to end the round in hardly over 5 minutes is a very dated feature that needs to go, to be honest, but malf going with it to be on hiatus while a developer fixes it would be really nice. I'd rather deal with ninja getting old than how malf is right now.

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Scheveningen

[geeves]

52 minutes ago, Cnaym said:

It's never the gamemode that is broken, it's the playerbase.

As a developer, I am inclined to disagree. There's a reason we mechanically restrict things.

54 minutes ago, Cnaym said:

Salting on the forums will not fix them issues, ahelping them might, playing malf yourself to offer some better rounds would be even better, but nobody does that.

Dismissing discussion as salt as a staff member is deplorable, perhaps it should be taken into account instead. Suggesting people play a role many consider un-fun is not the wisest.

57 minutes ago, Cnaym said:

I honestly enjoyed it when a ton of people went to cryo and salted in dead chat (because I can mute that ^^) that the roundtype is malf before even waiting for any kind of gimmik or interaction.

Concerning.

58 minutes ago, Cnaym said:

Before malf it was ling, before that it was merc, before that it was traitor.

Were these not adjusted following feedback?

58 minutes ago, Cnaym said:

I love how most of the issues presented should be ahelped, but rarely are.

It has been ahelped. Shit malf play such as silently siphoning, disabling tcomms, and rushing delta has been dismissed by a moderator as "standard malf play". Perhaps the moderation and admin teams should convene and get their stories straight.

 

The rest are valid. Though no developer I know wishes to touch malf. The fact that it had "rework" added as an option in the polls drives me up the fucking wall.

Let's remove it from the secret rotation.

[Chada1]

One of the biggest problems as I've already laid out but only afew people recognized and vocally acknowledged is that there is no scaling in Malf, so in many cases you're expecting a single Malf AI and 2 'borgs to engage 70+ Crew in roleplay and drive a narrative with them, that's not exactly easy and often times what seems like a stealth malf round is really just the AI and 'borgs struggling to do that.

It really shouldn't be its own gamemode, fixing the APC explosions to be a lot weaker and more contained and making delta take more APCs, almost the whole Station, and also outright removing the baseline gamemode and only having it in combination modes would really Really fix a lot of these problems if not all of them, then an AI is driving the narrative with OTHER antagonists instead trying to drive the narrative with actually 1-3 other 'borgs and probably only being able to reasonably interact with afew Command members with the 'borgs interacting with whoever they run into.

This is a massive hinderance to this mode actually being engaging, the AI has to be extremely loud to have any chance of driving tension in the round just on that.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Chada1

[Cnaym]

3 hours ago, geeves said:

Though no developer I know wishes to touch malf. The fact that it had "rework" added as an option in the polls drives me up the fucking wall.

Same, that should be an option after someone is willing to do it.

3 hours ago, geeves said:

Perhaps the moderation and admin teams should convene and get their stories straight.

Staff complaint if a shitty malf is not handled, let another staff take a look at it.

3 hours ago, geeves said:

Dismissing discussion as salt as a staff member is deplorable

Depends on what you mean with salt, for me it's a useless debate. I can defend malf for days, I can see why it needs to be removed. This entire discussion stems from quote number one though. If rework was the vote result and nobody wants to rework it, go for another vote. We do not pay coders to do what the community wants and if nobody is willing to rework it than the vote should clearly be between keep and scratch.

Heck I would vote for scratch it, since it's a shit ton of work for the staff with little to no silver lining, does not mean that I will support the forum game of "He said, she said."

A vote could solve the situation, this threat only generates and spreads salt.

I will take the prior suggestions about improving malf and AI as example here, the best ideas will not help if nobody does the coding part.

Playerbase wants their new shiny things, coders want to remove it since nobody wants to do the rework, magic contributor to fix does not pop up out of nowhere, result is everyone pointing at each other, rewind in a couple months. That's what I mean with salt in this case, there is little discussion going on about the topic.

[Wigglesworth Jones]

I support removing malf from secret. It's just an awful gamemode and anything I could say about malf has already been said.

[Carver]

 

Not pictured: Another AI Malfunction, two rounds before the top.

[Arrow768]

Malfunction has been removed from the secret gamemode rotation.
It can still be voted in.

[Scheveningen]

based

[geeves]

im happy

[KingOfThePing]

Fucking finally

[Chada1]

When we see malf AI in multi antag modes, it should be a loooot more fun.

[Carver]

I'm not sure how malf would even fare in those modes, truthfully. Wizards and Ninjas can both effortlessly kill the malf in about under 60 seconds of deciding they want it dead. Perhaps it may do better in other modes, I suppose.