Restrict Usage of LOOC

[Snakebittenn]

How many times has the following happened to you.
You're Security. The situation is tense. You're negotiating with a nefarious hostage taker, the man in her arms could die any second if you aren't careful. A firefight could break out right here in the bar. Your friend died earlier.
Joebob The Officer (LOOC): lmao this is just like that one movie

Something tragic or crazy happens. Maybe even something funny. Your character laughs, cries, shouts in excitement. Suddenly, everyone around you onstation goes completely silent. Rather than actually reacting in-character,
looc: OH MY GOD XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

You walk into the Medical lobby. You roll your shoulders, pulling out a cigarette and lighting it. You take a seat in one of the chairs, looking for a conversation. Both doctors are completely silent, staring at each other for the next 30 minutes.
Joebob The Doctor (LOOC): so dude have you seen the new warzone update
Bobjoe The Nurse (LOOC): no lmao tell me i didn't have time to download it

You're a traitor. You've been in maintenance, methodically and stealthily hacking your way through with your door hacking tool. You're prepared to duck in a locker if anyone comes by, but you're equally prepared to use your weapon.
Jobboe the Observer (LOOC): dude stealth antag seriously? you're shit

You're a chaplain. You're attempting to hold a funeral for someone who recently died of organ failure. Everyone sure did love Sam Jones the Engineering Apprentice. You'll do the best you can to honor their name-
Boejob the Assistant (LOOC): dude this is why they should nerf brainmed
and 5000 other comments and 10000 other scenarios.

In my honest opinion, LOOC should only be used for the following.
1) Saying you're going AFK.
2) Correcting a typo.
3) Asking for help.
4) Helping someone who needs it.

It is used too much for the following.
1) As a substitute for reacting ICly.
2) As a substitute for even roleplaying at all.
3) Dumbass ghost commentary.
4) Flooding holodeck/chapel gatherings with stupid memes.

I would like to suggest that staff crack down on this more, making it an actual rule we enforce. A mechanical solution would be weird and isn't really needed.

Addendum: Ghosts, at this point, do not actually need LOOC either.

[Yonnimer]

I don't personally see a issue with using LOOC to say a joke/shitpost/talk about something outside of the round while nothing is happening. Restricting it mechanically or rulewise isn't going to solve anything other then make rounds slower/more quiet. If you don't want to hear it you're also free to mute it, same as OOC.

Also, if ghosts abuse it to say something they shouldn't then they are bwoinked. This rarely happens, restricting it completely from them isn't really needed.

[Snakebittenn]

1 minute ago, Yonnimer said:

I don't personally see a issue with using LOOC to say a joke/shitpost/talk about something outside of the round while nothing is happening. Restricting it mechanically or rulewise isn't going to solve anything other then make rounds slower/more quiet. If you don't want to hear it you're also free to mute it, same as OOC.

If 'nothing is happening', you should be roleplaying, not shitposting about the new Call of Duty or something. 'Muting it' is also not a solution, because my own likes/immersion is not the problem. LOOC being used as a substitute for roleplay, the thing we're here for is the issue. If you want to joke/shitpost/talk about Kanye being President or something, use Discord.

[restricted]

100% agreed with snakebittens. I frequently see mini conversations happening in looc as a substitute for role-play and honestly the majority of looc jokes aren't even that funny. We'd be better of restricting it's use.

[Pratepresidenten]

Personally, when I hit a wall and I dont know where to take my rp, looc for me, is an okay way to pass a little time, and maybe get an idea from whatever is being talked about an try to bring it into character.

[Snakebittenn]

I have updated the title with an actual suggestion/solution.

[Codename: Bear]

I mean this is a thing that can be done. I don't see the point of it too much, since it's already something that can be enforced. If someone is using LOOC to RP that's basically IC in OOC which is against the rules. I use LOOC to ask people questions sometimes as a living person and a ghost, because I personally want to avoid using discord as much as possible. I could absolutely use discord/forums more.

I've had some LOOC discussions with people before. Nobody has ever pointed out it was a problem. If anything I'm saying in LOOC was a problem in any way, I'd hope people would mention it. I feel most people could be told to calm down the LOOC stuff and would listen. At least I hope they would.

Anyway I know "'Muting it' is also not a solution" but I've found muting OOC when people use it instead of discord to be a great solution for me. However, that is a personal fix for something I personally don't like. Maybe this is a huge thing I haven't noticed before and needs enforcing. How do you plan on enforcing it and handling punishments for breaking it?

[Arrow768]

51 minutes ago, Snakebittenn said:

I would like to suggest that staff crack down on this more, making it an actual rule we enforce. A mechanical solution would be weird and isn't really needed.

Yup, I support that.
LOOC should be used for clarifications as needed (be that spelling mistakes, teaching mechanics that cant be explained icly, ...) and not as a IC replacement or for dumb memes.

[Decepter]

Having been on a place where LOOC usage was policed heavily, it felt dumb there and adds extra work for admins for things as minor as the occasional OOC comment for a little laugh - it used to happen a lot on the server that must not be named, and honestly felt like an excuse for mods and admins to bwoink people for literally nothing. There just isn't a huge need to police it, If someone is abusing it to post a ridiculous amount you can always mute it. You don't have to tape up other peoples mouths because you can't stand them having a chat. The only thing that I think that should be against the rules, is your third example where someone moans about someone else's gameplay/roleplay and kind of already is against the 'don't be a dick rule' LOOC or not.

Does it get in the way of roleplay sometimes? Eh, I tend to find that if you start talking ICly again; you can pull everyone back into the room, it's never been an issue for me.

People are always going to want to say things like 'this reminds me of this' and most of the time when that happens all of the LOOC interactions are quite positive as people have a little wholesome moment where they remember a previous round or something they've all experienced.

[Dbrg]

I am absolutely against the "hardcore-ification" of the rules and standards of conduct we already have to the point where I'm not permitted an OOC chat/joke with someone without sliding into their DMs. I don't think there's any need for a blanket ban on LOOC usage that doesn't immediately further roleplay.

I'd understand a rule restricting LOOC usage in the middle of, say, hostage situations, combat, very crowded areas, etc,, but that's the extent of it. I think that's more than enough to tackle the issues you've presented. More, and you're effectively restricting people to communicating off-server and on the forums, which I think is a net loss to the community as a whole.

[Sheeplets]

Please no. This just seems like it would make unnecessary work for already overworked admins and step on the throats of people just trying to make small talk when there's nothing else going on.

[Scheveningen]

As above, I'm against tasking admins/mods to have to deal with inconsequential issues. Mute LOOC if you're irritable, I do it all the time.

[UnknownMurder]

Quote

Jobboe the Observer (LOOC): dude stealth antag seriously? you're shit

Above quote is ahelpable. 

2 hours ago, Snakebittenn said:

Joebob The Officer (LOOC): lmao this is just like that one movie

Boejob the Assistant (LOOC): dude this is why they should nerf brainmed and 5000 other comments and 10000 other scenarios.

Joebob The Doctor (LOOC): so dude have you seen the new warzone update
Bobjoe The Nurse (LOOC): no lmao tell me i didn't have time to download it

Above quote is not ahelpable. 

I am against it. I converse in LOOC to make a joke and will still do. People do have a good laugh in LOOC or poke fun of any situation. I will continue doing this even if the policy enacted. I might as well use (( )) if LOOC is removed or restricted further. There is a good time to converse in LOOC and there is a bad time to converse in LOOC. A good time to converse is when you're sitting around and want to mention something about real life when you're "working". A bad time to converse is when you're in middle of an active situation such as a patient dying at your hands or making an arrest and you're talking to people about "Hey, have you seen the new Call of Duty game?" as @Dbrg says. 

I don't know what ticked you off so bad to create this suggestion. 

[Boggle08]

Having LOOC around to shoot the shit with is a feature that adds to the game.. In moderation, it can be used to introduce variety with how you can interact with people on the server. I think it actually mitigates burn out, because the alternative is endlessly desk RPing until you run out of things to talk about. 

If we restrict LOOC to a local mentor help channel, people are just going to tab out of the game more than they already do to talk about other things. Merely having the client screen open in front of you and inputting text into the game is engagement. I don't mind admin intervention if someone makes it a bad habit of spending the whole round in LOOC as a station character, but I also don't wanna see more alt-tab zombies.

My real concern with LOOC starts when we get off extended/slow rounds and some real shit is going on. Mostly just for ghosts. If were were to add more policy, I would be 100% ok if we had a policy on ghosts using LOOC in proximity to locations with high round activity(i.e. Delaminating engines, busy medical staff, shootouts, or even antags trying to be sneaky.) I think ghosts giving tutorial advice in LOOC, even if it's to remedy a bug, teeters on borderline round involvement, especially if what they're advising on is the byproduct of antag shenanigans. LOOC also has a surprisingly large radius. If I'm operating the cargo desk, I can hear people talking in LOOC all the way from the chapel. Say I'm an officer looking for a merc team silently moving through the tunnels, and Ckey: Chucklenuts, who I know loves trailing antags when they ghost, says something as the team is sifting through the dark. I now know that there's a valid there, and that if I act on it, I'm entering a dangerous grey area of rule violation because meta information was disclosed in proximity to me. I think the above is already enforced as a general infringement of disclosing meta information, but It wouldn't hurt to make this more obvious to people when they step into the ghost role.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Boggle08

[Doxxmedearly]

Personally a compromise I'd rather see is just remove LOOC from (non-modmin) ghosts. We don't need the peanut gallery. Otherwise I don't feel like it's a big issue currently.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Doxxmedearly

[KingOfThePing]

I gave this suggestion some thought.

While I still do not agree that the scenarios presented by Paradox are a problem since you can mute LOOC when they clog up your screen or do not feel to deal with it (no one is obliged to answer LOOC).

I do agree though, that ghosts do not need it, since ghosts cannot contribute to anything IC, except helping new players or people new to a role, but in that case that should be dealt ICly or with an ahelp or their coworkers can answer in LOOC if there is no other way.

[Peppermint]

I don't mind ingame LOOC to chat and stuff, but getting stupid from ghosts is super annoying. I don't really see why said ghosts should be commenting on things they're not part of.

[Scheveningen]

3 hours ago, Doxxmedearly said:

Personally a compromise I'd rather see is just remove LOOC from (non-modmin) ghosts. We don't need the peanut gallery. Otherwise I don't feel like it's a big issue currently.

this

[UnknownMurder]

4 hours ago, Doxxmedearly said:

Personally a compromise I'd rather see is just remove LOOC from (non-modmin) ghosts. We don't need the peanut gallery. Otherwise I don't feel like it's a big issue currently.

I am okay with this compromise. 

[N8-Toe]

I like ghosts having  LOOC, being able to be walked through something by a ghost or be given mechanical advice I think is a benefit to the game and community. as well as situations like communicating to robotics as a ghost vis a vi posi and other such ghost roles. if people are salting as ghosts in LOOC just bwoink them. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face

[niennab]

I think this is a silly thing to police and in it's current state can be easily addressed with an ahelp. Sometimes it can be a nice break to just sort've joke about something between friends in LOOC and I have scarcely seen it used poorly.

I can agree with ghosts not having looc however. My only fear would be the lack of being able to quickly help someone with a mechanic issue.

The only times I have had to threaten an ahelp or ahelp over looc content were ghosts saying downright disrespectful or sexually charged comments to players in looc. Granted, these were obvious ahelpable situations. If someone is talking too much in looc just mute looc.

Edited July 14, 2020 by niennab

[Snakebittenn]

Very well, I'm willing to retarget this thread to be 'no LOOC for ghosts.'

[Carver]

Isn't inappropriate use of LOOC by ghosts already ahelpable?

[Skull132]

18 minutes ago, Carver said:

Isn't inappropriate use of LOOC by ghosts already ahelpable?

In theory.

But no one does this. And if something can be enforced via mechanics with minimal detriment to the gameplay experience, why not do it?

[Carver]

3 hours ago, Skull132 said:

In theory.

But no one does this. And if something can be enforced via mechanics with minimal detriment to the gameplay experience, why not do it?

To avoid restricting legitimate usage of ghost LOOC; mentoring, casual conversation during very slow periods, asking a question to someone after a round ended whom you don't know their ckey/discord, etc.