Rework the NanoTrasen Personnel Terminal Discord - Eliminate the parallel staff structure.

[Kintsugi]

The NPT discord is a strange beast - an affiliated discord in the same realm as the lore discord and departmental discord, the NPT is mentioned in official announcements (such as the one made last night) and is given quasi-official status - the NPT was provided a unique server icon to match the new icons that the lore, official, and staff discords have - and was apparently approached for private discussions about matters which the normal playerbase would not be made aware of until later.

And yet, at the same time, it is wholly unaccountable to the playerbase. The NPT, despite its apparently official status, is run by a parallel staff structure which has no affiliation with the real staff team. Occasionally some members of the staff team find themselves becoming relay staff, but this is not the rule - the NPT staff team can operate as they please, and new members of that team are recruited only by the NPT staff team and by the NPT staff team's standards. A player who finds themselves banned from the NPT has no way to appeal that ban except to the NPT staff team - and the ban appeal process is undocumented and largely subject to the whims of the NPT staff team. The relay also finds itself in a situation where moderation is held to less stringent standards than the real Aurora servers are - to be frank, this system is completely unsustainable. If the NPT is going to continue being a quasi-official discord that has a real and relevant relationship with Aurora, it'll need to be administered by actual Aurora staff- and held to the same standards.

Now, fortunately this hasn't really been an issue yet. I don't have any grudges or any outstanding problems with the majority of the NPT's team, and for the most part I think it's a great group of reasonable people. But the fact of the matter is that this really isn't acceptable in the long term - just because it's worked so far doesn't mean that tomorrow it'll continue working. In essence, I am requesting that Aurora's management put their foot down on this issue and integrate the discord into the official community apparatus - actual server staff should be the only people involved with managing the discord, and nobody else. Ban appeals, staff complaints, and what have you, will all be done through official Aurora methods. I wouldn't mind it if new staff roles were made purely for the NPT - stuff like relay staff and scenemasters - but for ultimately, they'll all need to be actual Aurora staff.

[Carver]

I've never felt a reason to use the relay or any of the affiliated departmental discords because of specifically this. If it is held in such an uncertain and semi-official position then it should be subject to the same moderation, checks and balances as the official server.

[Spider]

Yeah, totally agree with this. Makes sense for an official discord to be moderated by staff.

[Susan]

I completely agree with Danse.

If the Personnel Terminal wants to be an unofficial server, then it should not have a matching icon, should not host lore events or arc tie-ins with existing in-game arcs (like the Blood Moon concert and book store), and then at that point it will be free to do whatever it wants much like the other non-affiliated community servers, outside of the realm of accountability and oversight that the standard Aurora staff make-up is subject to. But it cannot have it's cake and eat it too. It should not be an 'unofficial' server that has serious ties to ongoing in-game, in-sever event chains, which is perhaps the most egregious violation of this 'unofficial independent' status.

Its staff members are not beholden to the typical complaint and resolution formats, the moderators and administrators are not made up entirely of Aurora staff and are not subject to the same stringent verification or application process but are instead instated entirely on a whim.

[incognitojesus]

Alright, allow me to dust off the ole forum account and give my full account, since I started that discord just a little over four years ago, and have actively maintained it since then. Perhaps it'll inform you as to why the discord is in the "hybrid" state that you mention.

So, originally, when the Relay was started (January 11, 2017), it didn't really have an official stance whatsoever. I created it, added the admins and mods as server roles with the appropriate permissions, and went from there. But nominally, from day one most of the moderation was done by me. It was wholly chat-based until the first Sol Invasion arc when we started introducing apartment channels, which was a sort of freeform roleplay for people who wanted to engage with their characters outside of the normal server setting. At this point, I'd still been relying on server mods and admins pitching in with moderation of content, since there wasn't much in the way of bans applied except in extreme cases when people from other servers would try and raid the discord. In fact, there are only 17 bans logged over the course of its four year history.

When my workload at college picked up, I realized that I wouldn't be able to do the moderating full-time, so around mid-2019 I picked up our first solely-discord mod. This has grown to include a head discord mod as well as two others, whose primary job is to just make sure people aren't going too far in the apartment channels, set up the aforementioned channels, and make sure people don't get too rowdy in OOC. The reason I recruited the discord mods was simple: the bulk of the modstaff and admins at the time didn't have any interest in the server or administering it. In fact, I have been repeatedly told that it's not an official component of the server by both admins and previous loremasters. 

So what changed? Well, nothing really. We've still been working for the last four years to deliver a great experience for the community that actually cares to engage with it. The only noticeable change is that we've tried to integrate more server-related ongoings with the discord, and these event inclusions (such as the bookstore and Blood Moon saga) were done wholly on the initiative of the person in charge of the event, which is completely fine by me. 

Now, to address the points made so far in this thread:

43 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

The NPT discord is a strange beast - an affiliated discord in the same realm as the lore discord and departmental discord, the NPT is mentioned in official announcements (such as the one made last night) and is given quasi-official status - the NPT was provided a unique server icon to match the new icons that the lore, official, and staff discords have - and was apparently approached for private discussions about matters which the normal playerbase would not be made aware of until later.

As I stated above, the NPT discord has never been made official, at least not to my knowledge. We've worked with lore staff to better represent the Aurora canon in the server, and the showrunner of one of the arcs has used it as a medium for hosting their events of their own initiative. At no point was I informed, "Hey, this is something that's solely limited to this discord regarding this arc." It wasn't an issue for me, and since the Aurora server didn't fall down in the interim period, I assume it wasn't an issue for the community-at-large. Also, we were only just provided a unique server icon courtesy of Kyres just last night, as opposed to the server icon (that I found on Google Images, mind you) we were using for the last four years. As for the private discussions, the extent of those discussions was just to switch over the flavor of the server to reflect the new change from NT to the SCC. That's it, really. 

48 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

And yet, at the same time, it is wholly unaccountable to the playerbase.

The entire playerbase does not use the Relay regularly. In fact, I'd say that less than 10% of the playerbase actively uses the Relay let's say, once a week. It's instead accountable to the people that actually use it, rather than having people who don't use it at all try to dictate what goes on. 

49 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

The NPT, despite its apparently official status, is run by a parallel staff structure which has no affiliation with the real staff team.

Since the dawn of the Discord, I have always tried to reflect the ever-changing roster of Aurora staff on the Relay, and in fact they've always had the appropriate server permissions. Admins have the ability to do most of everything, server mods have the permissions to kick/ban. The purpose of the parallel staff structure is to have a group of community members who are actually engaged on the Relay and read it, which as I stated above, has predominantly not been the case for the majority of the modstaff. It's simple, have the people who use the Relay moderate the Relay. 

 

53 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

The relay also finds itself in a situation where moderation is held to less stringent standards than the real Aurora servers are - to be frank, this system is completely unsustainable.

I'd say it's quite sustainable, considering the Relay has been around for over four years now with little modstaff/admin intervention. The same rules that apply to the General discord were shifted over to this discord, with the addition of some other rules that are necessary to properly facilitate something that is so different from the general discord and server. 

 

54 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

Now, fortunately this hasn't really been an issue yet.

But I thought it was completely unsustainable?

54 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

I don't have any grudges or any outstanding problems with the majority of the NPT's team, and for the most part I think it's a great group of reasonable people.

 

[Shenaanigans]

50 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

...is run by a parallel staff structure which has no affiliation with the real staff team. Occasionally some members of the staff team find themselves becoming relay staff, but this is not the rule - the NPT staff team can operate as they please, and new members of that team are recruited only by the NPT staff team and by the NPT staff team's standards.

Not true, actually. Any Aurora staff who join are added to the relay moderation area and have their opinions heard on those matters. You're right that the current "owners" are not Aurora staff, but they're hardly exempt from running the relay by server standards and run their decisions by staff who are present in the Discord regularly.

52 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

A player who finds themselves banned from the NPT has no way to appeal that ban except to the NPT staff team - and the ban appeal process is undocumented and largely subject to the whims of the NPT staff team.

Allowing people to post ban appeals when the ban took place on the relay can be easily done and, as for documentation, there's already talks going on to introduce the borealis bot so that there'll be the same ban procedure as what you see on the main server.

My only other point to bring up here is that the relay is not moderated by non-staff because they weaseled their way into power, but because the staff team at large didn't want to be obligated to moderate it. As it is, staff aren't even mandated to have to be in the main Discord server, let alone check back regularly enough to oversee what goes on there, so as much as standardizing the staff team across all loosely affiliated servers is a nice thought, the current arrangement came from needing to fill the gaps where core staff were not stepping up. I'm just fine with introducing better documentation and officially stating that oversight of the relay falls under Aurora staff purview, but the current overseers of the server do a good job and I would not want them to be told to step aside just for the sake of standardization. Maybe just making them a minor subset of staff whose powers only extend to the relay.

[niennab]

A point could be made for the way bans are recorded and appealed, however I don't believe replacing the entire relay team is is appropriate nor necessary. As I understand and through my interactions with them handling anything synthetic related, the current team does fantastic work. If replaced, I'd worry for the increased responsibilities on the moderator and admin team. They have more than enough to manage as is.

[Doc]

While it's all well and good to theorize about how the relay would somehow be better if everything was run by the same staff as the main server, the simple fact is that while it may be part of the community, it is not part of the server. It is auxiliary, it is optional, and it is not something that all players- or, all staff- participate in. Moderation staff are not required to be in it. Staff- including modmins- are not even required to be in the main Aurora discord, or lore discord, though they may get odd looks once in a while when it comes up that they're not there, and we have had at least two members that I can recall who exercised this for extensive periods of time staffing.

At the end of the day, they're volunteers, and they volunteer to moderate the server and its directly related functions, like ban appeals and complaints- which relate to the server. They don't sign up to moderate a discord. Guess who does? The relay moderation team.

Even if the relay moderation team was purged because they're """not real aurora staff""", and expectation was returned to the modmin staff who happen to be there to handle everything, it would simply return to the status-quo as of before the relay moderation team being formed- nothing happens, the server is effectively abandoned by staff except by those relatively few modmin staff who actively utilize it themselves, and requests and moderation are either handled by those handful of people who effectively have full control of the server with no real oversight because no one else is involved, or is handled by a non-present member of staff dragged in who has no context for the environment or the history of the members involved, and probably doesn't care at all given they weren't participating beforehand. This is the same logic by which CCIA refuses to handle IRs based on relay content, and the relay team and server lore team formed Bubble instead- it's simply not their responsibility, and they have no obligation to overextend their responsibilities. New members who actually want to can handle it.

Is the lack of unban appeal system a problem? Yeah. I can see that. But that's a problem that can be solved by far simpler means than purging a volunteers for not being "real" staff and forcing disinterested modmins to take their place- Borealis integration is the most obvious solution that comes to mind and that I've already seen floated. This is the nuclear option for a very small and only potential problem. Is the lack of """real staff""" oversight an issue? In my opinion, no- but mainly because, defacto, the relay team already is overseen by admins, they just rarely if ever have any need to step in. Could it be put into words? Sure, if that makes you feel better.

[Kintsugi]

3 minutes ago, incognitojesus said:

 

 

This image is correct. I'm afraid it doesn't change anything I said at all, however. I do find the fact that you'd include it as an attempt to "gotcha" me to be excessively petty and immature. As for the rest of what you said, I can't say it impacts my stance at all - the fact of the matter is that if need be, this process can just be a simple change of hats - and relay moderators simply get inducted into the official staff team as it is.

[Alberyk]

8 minutes ago, incognitojesus said:

As I stated above, the NPT discord has never been made official, at least not to my knowledge. We've worked with lore staff to better represent the Aurora canon in the server, and the showrunner of one of the arcs has used it as a medium for hosting their events of their own initiative. At no point was I informed, "Hey, this is something that's solely limited to this discord regarding this arc." It wasn't an issue for me, and since the Aurora server didn't fall down in the interim period, I assume it wasn't an issue for the community-at-large. Also, we were only just provided a unique server icon courtesy of Kyres just last night, as opposed to the server icon (that I found on Google Images, mind you) we were using for the last four years. As for the private discussions, the extent of those discussions was just to switch over the flavor of the server to reflect the new change from NT to the SCC. That's it, really. 

1 hour ago, DanseMacabre said:

I believe that this stance was indeed a giant mistake by the previous administration. And I am more than eager to make it official as we just started to remove all the excessive discords that clogged the affiliated discord groups channel. Stuff like the lore hub was a sucess for example. And I do want the relay to be a more important and integrated part of the community. I have even talked with the mods and admins to take a more active part in it. I believe that the relay is indeed a great idea and something positive to have in the community.

I think that the fact that there is no official system, besides pming people, to get unbanned or complaint about like it hexist for all of our other discords is indeed an issue that should be fixed. Having an unified moderation team would also make it easier for everyone in the regards to keeping up with who did what or who should get banned, would also make the actions more consistent and accountable for.

[DickFreedomJohnson]

-1 this honestly feels like danse trying to fix a nonexistent issue. as Incog posted above the relay chat has been sustainable for as long as I've been a part of the community and it's become a major part of the community as a whole in my opinion. From what I can imagine the staff likely want the opt in option as far as being staff on there as they probably have their hands full or otherwise don't want to administrate it. I do agree with your point as far as the bans go. On the topic of "we shouldn't have official arc content on the NT Relay chat" who actually cares as long as the arc's content is being run by the staff participating in the arc? The content I have seen for the event arcs that I've seen posted and used in the relay have always been a really fun extension of everything that is going on and provides alot more depth rather then "everything happens on the NSS Aurora and absolutely nowhere else."

[Cnaym]

Alb summed it up pretty nicely. I am all for making it either official or replacing it by an official one. It makes no sense to have a semi official server like this. While I understand that it did not start out as one, the fact that it is used as one makes it clear for me that there is a need for an official from of it to address the issues outlined in this thread. I also prefer to use the forums and such for appeals or complaints, a structure that is needed if discord is used for event related stuff that turns it to be canon and all.

On the topic of moderation teams itself, I see no issue with having volunteers moderate such a discord with a focus on it. The old department channels were handled like this with official server admins at the top of the list.

[Haydizzle]

I'm not looking to write up a big expose atm as most of my points were already made by other people (maybe later when I have time? Who knows) but just to comment in quickly:

1 hour ago, Susan said:

If the Personnel Terminal wants to be an unofficial server, then it should not have a matching icon, should not host lore events or arc tie-ins with existing in-game arcs (like the Blood Moon concert and book store),

I believe the matching icon was provided rather than requested, and it is not exactly a copyright claim. Servers getting access to a similar logo is a non sequitur; it's unofficial, but still affiliated. We couldn't stop the security discord that still exists from making a similar icon, for example.

As for arc tie-ins, those are completely on whoever is running or helping to run arcs, and since the point of the server is to be a community for roleplaying in the setting outside of SS13, this serves as the best venue for non-station antics related to arcs. Plus, anything happening in this same capacity isn't really considered "arc important" as it is a minor detail and anything that happens there isn't required info for people outside the relay server.

26 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

I think that the fact that there is no official system, besides pming people, to get unbanned or complaint about like it hexist for all of our other discords is indeed an issue that should be fixed.

I might be wrong about this, but this hasn't been an issue in the past because it hasn't really popped up before. A system'll get ironed out for dealing with complaints and bans.

Overall though the server is in a good spot. Generally speaking any bans on the main server are simply mirrored on the relay, so any bans outside of that have been few and far between to my knowledge.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Haydizzle

[Carver]

Having a separate pool of discord staff to ease potential strain from in-game staff is good and all, but are they put through similarly rigorous application processes? All official server staff are rather publicized in their application, recruitment and promotions - if this server were integrated, it would be ideal to retroactively put it's own staff through the same to prevent an unfortunate grandfather clause.

[Arrow768]

3 hours ago, Shenaanigans said:

Allowing people to post ban appeals when the ban took place on the relay can be easily done and, as for documentation, there's already talks going on to introduce the borealis bot so that there'll be the same ban procedure as what you see on the main server.

Posting ban-appeals on the aurora-forums is not a possibility when the discord server is not managed by the aurora staff team as it is a different "administrative domain" that is unrelated to the procedures that are in place for the rest of the Aurora Community.

[WickedCybs]

Would be nice if the relay was "officially" managed by the Aurora staff team rather than by community members I agree. There is only so much we can do in the end and we can only stand to gain from closer integration at this point assuming staff care to maintain it.

Additionally, given the image Incog posted and other factors, I do hope this thread was not borne out of a grudge like the OP says because it gives a really unfortunate feeling to the thread. I don't like involving myself with these potentially bad faith arguments. 

[Cnaym]

1 hour ago, WickedCybs said:

Additionally, given the image Incog posted and other factors, I do hope this thread was not borne out of a grudge like the OP says because it gives a really unfortunate feeling to the thread. I don't like involving myself with these potentially bad faith arguments. 

That image pretty much detracted nothing from the points raised. I had the same thread written up to post it a day later without ever interacting with Incog before due to the points raised. Luckily people do not have to like each other to engage in friendly communication ? 

[Caelphon]

Sorry - very, very much disagree with Danse here. 

Turning the relay on its head because an individual feels it isn't transparent enough isn't covered by the Aurora Rules/Regulations. 

It was created in 2017 -- where the Head Staff granted it affiliation (or thereabouts). To suddenly change it because it doesn't operate like the Aurora four years after makes zero sense: It ISNT the Aurora, nor is it an official server of the Aurora. 

If people are really going to be angry about the relay, let's starts with the departmental relays (ahem Security). I'm not even going to expand on why, everyone knows why the Security Discord should be shutdown. It's a cesspool. 

[MattAtlas]

14 hours ago, Alberyk said:

I believe that this stance was indeed a giant mistake by the previous administration. And I am more than eager to make it official as we just started to remove all the excessive discords that clogged the affiliated discord groups channel. Stuff like the lore hub was a sucess for example. And I do want the relay to be a more important and integrated part of the community. I have even talked with the mods and admins to take a more active part in it. I believe that the relay is indeed a great idea and something positive to have in the community.

I think that the fact that there is no official system, besides pming people, to get unbanned or complaint about like it hexist for all of our other discords is indeed an issue that should be fixed. Having an unified moderation team would also make it easier for everyone in the regards to keeping up with who did what or who should get banned, would also make the actions more consistent and accountable for.

Like Alberyk said, it was a very big mistake for the previous administration to not capitalize on the Relay, as it were. It's a very very big part of the server at this point, and one that should become official, in my opinion, as it'd allow us to do a lot of cool things such as events or arc side-shows (like one that's running right now). It could be said that this can happen currently because it is, and it's true, however it becomes a little iffy when moderation is done by two parallel groups with no appeal or complaint process. This also creates situations in which it's awkward to enforce the rules (and was the main reason why moderators didn't really enforce rules prior to the creation of relay mods; they were accountable to someone not in their staff structure, firstly, and secondly there was no inherent punishment structures unlike Borealis' strike system).

14 hours ago, Haydizzle said:

I might be wrong about this, but this hasn't been an issue in the past because it hasn't really popped up before. A system'll get ironed out for dealing with complaints and bans.

It's bound to be a problem is the thing. Letting evident holes persist because they haven't leaked water yet isn't a good idea, especially when they may get in the way of further integration.

People also seem to be assuming moderators and administrators are disinterested. I'm not sure where this comes from other than experience with moderation teams that no longer exist (the administration and moderation teams have changed dramatically since 2017, including their stances on these things) or from claims made by dubious people.

[Skull132]

1 hour ago, MattAtlas said:

People also seem to be assuming moderators and administrators are disinterested. I'm not sure where this comes from other than experience with moderation teams that no longer exist (the administration and moderation teams have changed dramatically since 2017, including their stances on these things) or from claims made by dubious people.

I can help with that.

The official policy, currently, is that indeed, the relay is not an official community discord and that's that. They don't have the same staff, don't follow the same procedure, and aren't a part of what we consider the official "Community" or whatever have you. This also means that staff aren't required to participate or moderate there: they're not being told to, ergo, they won't go there to do their thing. That is literally how the current system works and is meant to work.

The original reason behind this decision was to simply conserve manpower back in the day. We had a good dozen "affiliate" discords pop up, and it was decided to create a sort of a "weak bond" system so we could monitor the discords that our community members are bound to congregate in, but at the same time, without outright burdening the staff with a requirement for active moderation.

However, over time, it has become apparent that the relay is quite important to our community. And our staff would like to make further use of it in events and whatever else. However, if we continue to funnel official activity there (such as integration with our lore arcs), then we start becoming more and more tied to its upkeep. Which is roughly where we are now: we would like to expand upon the idea of the relay, by integrating it more with official events, maybe also broadcast it in more places, and whatever else we can think of; but should that happen, we come into issues of quality assurance, moderation procedures, etcetera. Stuff which our "Community" has established, but don't yet apply to the relay discord.

If you raise the complaint that mods and admins have shown a disinterest in the Discord, then that's easy to answer: they haven't been told to go and staff there. If the decision is made to the contrary, that will be fixed. Other manpower issues can be handled with deputized volunteers, new teams, or whatever else. (If anyone remembers the Forum Mod shit back in the day, we can get creative if needed.)

[Garnascus]

20 hours ago, Alberyk said:

I believe that this stance was indeed a giant mistake by the previous administration

You have the privilege here of looking back with hindsight. in 2017 IJ was still staff and wanted a neat place for a few players to RP in more relaxed and text based settings. It seemed like a fine idea at the time and that was as far as "official aurora oversight" needed to reach. The overwhelming majority of our staff at the time could not or just did not take part in the forums and the player discord. I was not really interested in adding new duties to people that they did not really want to do and contribute to burnout. Over time our sense of community has evolved, we had a kerfluffle with ancillary and "affiliated discords" and of course the whole spectacle that was the thunderdome (which i removed after listening to the team). "The aurora community" of today seems to encompass more than just the server itself. What i mean by that is a lot of players interact in aurora related matters on other discords like the security discord and the relay. The last thing i want to do is swoop in and try to take over everything. At the same time i think some consistency is required. As i understand the only "official" discord we have is the player one. 

I have always had staff permissions on the relay and so did abo when he was head admin, i just have personally not really focused on it at all. 

[Carver]

8 hours ago, Caelphon said:

If people are really going to be angry about the relay, let's starts with the departmental relays (ahem Security). I'm not even going to expand on why, everyone knows why the Security Discord should be shutdown. It's a cesspool. 

I'm not sure this is an apt comparison, given that said discord does not appear in the #affiliated_groups channel on the official one, to my knowledge doesn't have an icon in the style of the officially-managed discords, and as isn't brought in for any form of arc interaction (again, to my knowledge).

I do find it rather amusing though that you're throwing shade at an entirely unrelated discord on the assumption that 'everyone' knows what's going on there, because I don't. It has no real affiliation, why should I care what happens there? Same goes for the other departmental (and the old species) discords that, despite whatever may occur in them, are no longer advertised on #affiliated_groups after their replacement by the Department Hub per the below image.

Spoiler

 

[WickedCybs]

11 hours ago, Cnaym said:

That image pretty much detracted nothing from the points raised. I had the same thread written up to post it a day later without ever interacting with Incog before due to the points raised. Luckily people do not have to like each other to engage in friendly communication ? 

It does not really matter if it didn't, it potentially implies unfortunate things and that's my issue. It's been cleared up elsewhere but to expand on this, what am I supposed to think when I see "There are no personal grudges here" and then that? Presentation matters and It's not something I'm ignoring if we're maintaining this "friendly communication." I won't claim to be perfect myself though and not everyone is going to like each other. That's how it goes.

As I said, I think integration is a good change.

Edited February 28, 2021 by WickedCybs
moar

[Kryostro]

I think if things that impact the lore of the server and on-going events which are sponsored by a developer of a lore on the NT-Relay, it should be tied more closely and kept to the same standards at the maincord. I don't know why this thread is edged initially toward shit-flinging about NT-SEC(which has been pulled off in sake for the Departmental Discord), it doesn't really tie in prevalently to the argument of further merging the ties between the staff of the community and the staff of a side-discord which sponsors canon occurrences and shaped the ways events have transpired, ex: cat-event.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Kryostro

[canon35]

I'm in support of this. I'm going to repeat previous points here, but the NT Relay Discord has been used for the Bad Moon events and arc developments, along with integration with the sadly cancelled Diona event arc. Despite not being a official server, it's still had an impact on how our lore events go and their impact on not just characters, but future canon as well. It's an incredibly good tool for lore devs to use to help drive interest in events and thus the lore. We should integrate it, and we already have had several adminstaff members say their support in helping moderate or run it as well. I can't see anything but benefits from integrating the server into Aurora's structure fully.