[1 Dismissal] Disable combat borgs

[Scheveningen]

I don't think AIs are as impactful to an antagonist's experience as much as two rolley bois are when they happen to tread onto your path. This is a serious post in spite of the current date.

 

.

Behold, the rolley boi.

In their arsenal:

1.) A module that circumvents a weakness inherent to any other cyborg type including the syndicate cyborg, speed! Not only does it overcome the weakness but it ends up being an absurd strength as it outpaces all sprinting speeds in the game aside from the Unathi, but one would have to be joking to take that into legitimate consideration given how combat cyborgs sustain their speed for much longer without significant tradeoff.

2.) A module that acts as a damage sponge to any projectile type that is not an ion blast. And we know how common EMPs are in this game. Not.

3.) A mounted laser weapon which now draws from the cyborg power cell.

4.) A melee power hammer that does an absurd amount of damage.

5.) And if they get really lucky to be hacked, they get a laser cannon on top of that.

So basically, combat borgs have insane mobility, insane melee advantages, a shield that soaks guns aside from an ion rifle, and ranged capability to further drive the power spike you get from crisis override engaging, up the damn wall. Combat cyborgs provide a rather absurd advantage to the general crew given their specialized combat nature, being generally better and less punishing for getting into combat than any other role. When something is designed for the explicit purpose of killing off all of the antagonists in the round and having no other interesting quirks that make the module less then reliable, you know there's a problem.

Ion weaponry is terribly uncommon and also inconvenient to carry given the weight class of an ion rifle and how expensive a box of EMP grenades are for an uplink, and I do not foresee a PR adding ion carbines to antag arsenals any time soon. The introduction of more ion weaponry would not significantly ease the amount of pressure that combat cyborgs have to deliberately end the round much quicker than was anticipated.

While combat cyborgs were cool at the time at being implemented, it's increasingly becoming more obvious they are fulfilling the purpose they were designed for, which is to indiscriminately murder any external station threat the cyborg comes across. And in other cases, also murking crewmembers due to how indiscriminate combat cyborgs are when murking their targets.

I think the game flow would generally benefit without combat cyborgs and the emergency crisis button being temporarily committed out for the time being, instead saving combat cyborgs as supplemental to HAPT or on occasion, ERT, if an administrator is feeling particularly ornery about it.

[Chada1]

I fully support restricting Combat 'borgs further. They add little to the game besides being mass validhunting tools and frankly their only means of Combat being to kill shuts down rounds.

[Kaed]

Yeah I don't super care for this module. I've hardly ever seen it in the game, not because it's not used much, but because I'm rarely in proximity to where they are when they ARE used, so I wasn't aware of the full scope of their ridiculousness.

But I do agree, they've got too much. They need at the least a nerf of some kind, but I'm usually against the removal of parts of the game without first trying to fix or rebalance them.

[Pratepresidenten]

I dont think the issue here are the combat borgs themselves. Sure, they're powerful as fuck and they can stomp on more or less anything. But where do combat borgs come from? Command.

Command players are the ones behind combat borgs. When combat borgs are brought out, its not for peace negotiations, its to exterminate whatever they were activated for.

Perhaps we should look more closely at command players activating the crisis override for flimsy reasons. One deadly traitor is hardly cause for combat borgs, unless said traitor has wiped out all of sec, neither is a somewhat annoying heister squad, or a teleporting shitninja for that sake.

Crisis override right now, is much like the evac shuttle or ERT, Its triggered to end the round, and it should be treated as such.

You activate them as a last resort, not to beef up security with extra firepower.

Just my two cents on the matter.

[Kaed]

Fair points. I usually activated them just because someone requested them, and because I had little context on what they could actually do. They were just a 'give more firepower' button to me.

[Sebbe]

Fair points. I usually activated them just because someone requested them, and because I had little context on what they could actually do. They were just a 'give more firepower' button to me.

 

If what you say here is true I feel like perhaps Command is lacking a lot of information on their Wiki, to me "They were just a 'give more firepower' button to me." shows that perhaps some of the Command staff are ignorant to the actual power behind everything they can do, what changing the alert levels do and the responsibilities every action and every important button press do.

This brings me somewhat to the C-Borgs.

I've only met a C-Borg once as an antag, to me it was an amusing interaction as the player behind it obviously forgot a lot about how an AI should act towards a Diona. The player had a decent standoff with me where a QM put himself in needless risk and got killed for it, but the borg managed to split me... then the borg decided to chase down and attempt to kill the Nymphs, nymphs that are no longer classified as a crewmember, hence no longer a threat to the station or it's crew. I of course am laid back as all hell and no longer care much for death as I haven't died since getting my Diona whitelist, making me not make a character complaint against the borg but I was certainly amused by its mentality.

My point being:

I think the problem stems from the players that play the C-Borgs, and Command being unaware of what their actions do, at least the gravity of their actions, be it pressing one single button.

I am indifferent to the removal of Combat borgs, I feel there are positives to them and a bit more negatives, but they can stay and validhunt, combating them isn't the hardest thing currently but then need a nerf if not anything else.

On the other hand recent revelations should show that Command needs more underlines on how much impact pressing the "Release the borgs" button, some training in what alerts to use would not go unwanted but that's a bit too much of a derail.

That's my thoughts on this subject.

-Sebbe

[kyres1]

Crisis override right now, is much like the evac shuttle or ERT, Its triggered to end the round, and it should be treated as such.

You activate them as a last resort, not to beef up security with extra firepower.

 

This is exactly my input on the matter, word for word. The issue is more how command treats the combat borgs lightly when they're essentially a "kill everything that doesn't have these special instakill weapons" button.

[Scheveningen]

Again, command being responsible for activating them does not make them any less overloaded and superior in combat to literally anything else in the game. A single combat borg provides an absurd game imbalance that cannot be dealt with short of accessing a cyborg console with command level access or actually carrying the most inconvenient and bulky thing to carry in the game.

[Itanimulli]

How about no? They're barely seen, and when they are, they provide the needed "ohshit" factor with the capabilities to back it up.

[sonicgotnuked]

The main issue I find with command and security is they 'request' backup. These borgs and ERT shouldn't be called on the bases of "we want more help shooting our already hard to take down asses."

Combat borgs run down antags when they do come in play and sometimes you don't have the luxury of the borg consoles when you are a merc or raider.

Combat borgs should be harder to get and I also believe that it should be given to the malf AI on its third or fourth tier of synthetic domination to help it give a better chance at actuall survival against the crew.

Lastly, it should be a choice of the players who are these combat borgs when the person who they are targeting is crew due to its laws not to harm crew.

[Butterrobber202]

This is a command hitting the win button to often moretean they should problem than a Cyborg problem

[Doc]

Combat cyborgs add nothing to the round. The borgs are already in the round, they just start going around murdering the antagonists. At least when ERT are called it brings in new characters to go around murdering the antagonists. Any circumstances that would require combat cyborgs apply to calling ERT. ERT is just combat cyborgs with a slight delay and an actual possibility at adding something to the round instead of/in addition to removing the antags from it.

The point is: just call ERT.

+1

[Kaed]

Combat cyborgs add nothing to the round. The borgs are already in the round, they just start going around murdering the antagonists. At least when ERT are called it brings in new characters to go around murdering the antagonists. Any circumstances that would require combat cyborgs apply to calling ERT. ERT is just combat cyborgs with a slight delay and an actual possibility at adding something to the round instead of/in addition to removing the antags from it.

The point is: just call ERT.

+1

 

I don't know, you could definitely use this argument to say the ERT can be removed from the game because they had nothing to the round other than killing the antags.

But we've already been there, in another thread. Most of the time I kind of hate the ERT, at least you can lawchange cyborgs

[Arrow768]

The point brought up with ERT is somewhat doublesided.

Yes, it brings in new characters. But usually those are the people that just got killed by the antags.

So they have a very high motivation to stomp them into the ground.

But thats a discussion for another topic.

Yes, the borgs are meant to be a force multiplier.

When shit is fucked up, but not fucked up enough for a ERT.

The thing to keep in mind here, is that code red is for a confirmed threat.

That also includes a ninja that is teleporting around an escaping from security and attacking personel.

Or a team of heisters, keep coming back over and over again, but always jump away in the shuttle before security can get to them.

These situations dont warrant a ERT or a Emergency Shuttle Call, since those are not emergencies.

But you need something to escalate the situation and either force them to step up their game aswell, force a retreat or take them out.

All of these options are round enders.

And that is the purpose of these borgs.

And yes, all the antags I just mentioned have access to EMP weapons.

The heisters get a ion rifle

And the ninja can steal the one from the armory or order in emp grenades via cargo.

(Yes that would require them to abduct someone and take their ID).

[ben10083]

I feel that combat borgs can be a massive risk in terms of double edged sword, let me do an example to show you what I mean.

One Traitor emags some drones and has them get to ai and emag THEM, making them loyal to him. He then has them stockpile reset modules. then the other traitor then takes the spare id and the first one overpowers the RD and takes their id, now they activate combat override.

In summary, combat borgs can also work for antags unlike the ERT, and antaggy combat borgs sound much more interesting than them just being synthetic ERTs, so if they become something that only malf AIs can have happen (a tech that unlocks the module) it will be alot for interesting.

[K0NFL1QT]

This had better have been a bad April Fools suggestion, because jesus fucking christ. Another suggestion to nerf the stations capacity to actually defend itself from mass murdering antag types.

 

I fully support restricting Combat 'borgs further. They add little to the game besides being mass validhunting tools and frankly their only means of Combat being to kill shuts down rounds.

 

Combat borgs are only ever called for in situations that are confirmed Code Red and currently too much for Security to handle. They're not 'mass validhunt tools', they're not 'instant I win' buttons. They're a counter-deployment to the mass murder already being caused by certain antags, and yes they are easily counterable themselves unless you try to fight them head on with the wrong tools. If you don't want to risk combat borgs, don't go loud. If you do go loud, prepare for an adequate response, or at least the attempt. Use the tools provided to antags to neutralise the stations defense mechanisms, for this exact purpose if you fear it so much. Protip: EMP weapons will generally disable any IPCs, borgs, security with laser weapons and even ERT, so you have absolutely no excuse not to prioritise getting one, and can only blame yourself if you willingly overlook the ease with which all these threats can be handled with EMP weaponry.

 

Yes, the borgs are meant to be a force multiplier. When shit is fucked up, but not fucked up enough for a ERT. The thing to keep in mind here, is that code red is for a confirmed threat. That also includes a ninja that is teleporting around an escaping from security and attacking personel. Or a team of heisters, keep coming back over and over again, but always jump away in the shuttle before security can get to them. These situations dont warrant a ERT or a Emergency Shuttle Call, since those are not emergencies. But you need something to escalate the situation and either force them to step up their game aswell, force a retreat or take them out.

All of these options are round enders. And that is the purpose of these borgs. And yes, all the antags I just mentioned have access to EMP weapons.

 

Arrow's hit the bullseye. Borgs are an intentional force multiplier intended to give the station rapid, heavy self-defense capabilities, either because a situation is beyond Securitys ability to handle, or because they will need the reinforcement without requiring a full ERT. Combat borgs are just as vulnerable to the typical borg weaknesses, though; they can be EMP'd with various weapons, they can be flash dismantled, they can be remotely locked in place and remotely destroyed, must follow orders from the AI, Command and other crew, and are subject to lawsets that can be manipulated.

I sincerely hope this was just an April Fools prank, bro.

[Scheveningen]

Glad to know you speak for all heads of staff and every given cited situation that calls for combat cyborg. Indeed, Combat cyborgs have never been deployed immediately during crossfire/merc/heist rounds in due part to overwhelming response that command doesn't feel like dealing with before casualties occur.

Contrary to popular belief, EMPs are not very common and when the capability to acquire them is actually present, the price for doing so comes at an incredible cost from multiple sources.

Ion equipment is generally unviable to appropriately use in its current state. Because the only weapon accessible to antagonists that is an ion weapon happens to be a rifle with a very bulky weight class, meaning major sacrifices in utility would need to be made if one actually planned on carrying it.

EMP grenades currently have a TC cost that force you to make budget sacrifices. Individual traitors themselves can barely afford to lose out on purchases that give them bigger power-spikes than anyone else, and boxes alone also force an individual to make storage space sacrifices on top of that.

Antagonists need to sacrifice much of their own power in major areas just to be able to instantly react to something that doesn't feel pain or get stunned by anything other than the designated niche tool that carries a heavier price than any other weaponry in the game to carry.

On top of that, combat cyborgs are ridiculously overloaded with more raw power than mercenary teams could possibly min-max on their own with TC expenditures.

This is a balance/game meta problem moreso than it is a roleplay problem. Combat cyborgs only exist to bring their own flavor of boring murderboning to counter boring murderboning from the worst-case scenario of a shit antagonist. Neither of which should ever happen. To entertain the thought of combat cyborgs still existing in-game is promoting a vicious cycle of senseless murder without meaningful interaction. This is not how you treat the disease.

[Scheveningen]

To doublepost and re-iterate.

Combat cyborgs are faster, so they will out-position you, out-run you, and will be able to respond faster than you can. You will waste ammunition and time trying to punish them for them taking evasive action. They are punishing you harder.

Combat cyborgs have strong ranged capability and a larger capacity than the average dude with a laser rifle as they draw from their own reserves. They will out-gun and out-suppress you. They are punishing you harder.

Combat cyborgs have a power hammer to destroy you up-close and personal. They will break you and crit you quicker than an idjit with an e-sword. They are punishing you harder.

Combat cyborgs have a shield module that will allow them to take a lot of punishment and put the person shooting at them at a serious disadvantage by acting as an obstacle that doesn't care if it gets hit, it is doing its job and not taking very significant punishment for it compared if anyone else were to do so. They have a robotics lab to roll back to if they need repairs. They will out-sustain you. They are punishing you harder.

Combat cyborgs have a link to the AI and security comms. They will outplay you with superior intel and information. They are punishing you harder.

The very fact that combat cyborgs can be deployed and the point after they are deployed provides an overwhelming amount of strategic pressure that strongly disfavors you as it forces you to play extremely defensive and passive, to not take risks and not be able to pursue your antagonist goals in the round as soon as they are deployed. You are being punished by the mere threat of their kill pressure even existing.

Your round is done when combat cyborgs are in play, if you are on the receiving end. You are not able to counterplay combat cyborgs without following a step-by-step measure of murdering anyone capable of posing a threat to you as soon as the round starts.

Combat cyborgs are only appropriate if they supplement HAPT as the informal deathsquad bots that they are. They have the literal edgy-ass black and red color scheme to show this.

[Coalf]

I do agree it is very eyebrow raising when a reset board and a swipe from two heads can upgrade borgs to a module that is either more or as powerful as the ridiculously expensive 35 TC syndicate cyborg which is also very, very broken as of now.

However at the same time I agree that perhaps the combat borg module should not be outright removed but be replaced with a different module more focused on defense rather than offense, to not perpetuate this "Killing the antag is number 1 priority" mindset.

I don't see merrit in "It's hard to kill so it shouldn't exist", but I agree with the fact that if it's this hard to kill and this lethal, it should certainly cost more than a 1000 metal and a swiping of ID cards.

[Scheveningen]

It doesn't need to be removed from the game.

It needs to be removed from being deployed by the station.

If anything, turning the current security bots into the Peacekeeper cyborgs from /tg/ to utilize sonic warfare to deal with criminals, and revamping the current cyborgs and giving them riot-control intensive things to have more defensive strength than offensive strength would be perfect.

Combat cyborgs are optimally played extremely aggressively because there is a lot of shit they can get away with aside from getting blasted by the rare EMP because one guy decided to sacrifice other power for utility they were only going to use once anyway. Whether removed or reworked, the current design of the combat cyborg needs to go out the window or back to the drawing board.

Edit: sentence structure.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Guest

[Coalf]

Well then I agree with it, if it's intended to remove these agressive "Beepity Boopity get off my property" assault borgs for more defence centered, protecta-trons/control trons, then yes I do support it.

[Arrow768]

Regarding the difficult to acquire ion gear and that there is no easy counter to them:

Combat Borgs are primarily used against the following Antags:

• Mercs
  
• Heisters
  
• Cult (sometimes)
  
• Ninja / Wizard if they choose to teleport in, attack and teleport out.
  

 

Mercs get two ion rifles:

 

Heisters get one aswell:

 

Cultists get the EMP Runes/Papers/Talismans

For the Ninja and the Wizards its a bit more difficult but there are still quite a few options:

• EMP Grenades, be it from the uplink or from cargo
  
• Haywire shells from cargo (especially for the traitors)
  
• And finally: Blowing them via the console in the RDs Office, the console on the bridge or by building a console using the board from secure tech storage. (Requires a ID with access or a emag)
  
• Or just build a new upload computer and add a new law, and now you have got them on your side.
  

 

As explained in my last posts: Without them command doesnt have the ability to force the antags to make a move / end the round in a timely manner if it is dragging on since a while.

(Otherweise we are going to be stuck on code red for a very long time if we have a ninja / wizard / heisters that are a issue, but not a issue severe enough to warrant a emergency shuttle or emergency response team)

Therefore I am voting for dismissal on the suggestion to remove them.

They can be changed or replaced, but then a proper replacement would need to be suggested and sprited (coding them is the smaller issue)

Edit: Yes the ion rifles are bulky, but you need to pack for what you want to combat, I would be willing to code a smaller version if someone provides the sprites.

Edit 2: The usage of combat borgs against threats that do not need them / can be reasonably handled by security is a administration issue and should be ahelped. It is not something that we need to enforce via code.

[Garnascus]

Again, command being responsible for activating them does not make them any less overloaded and superior in combat to literally anything else in the game. A single combat borg provides an absurd game imbalance that cannot be dealt with short of accessing a cyborg console with command level access or actually carrying the most inconvenient and bulky thing to carry in the game.

 

Agreed tbh. People are always so quick to make the argument "X isnt the problem its the people who use X that are the problem". This argument has serious issues associated with it. We as staff can only react to thing and can almost never undo or retcon actions in round. in short, if shit gets fucked all we can do is hope it doesnt get fucked next time. I think combat borgs are too large an advantage for the station to have. If you cannot deal with the threat with your supplied weaponry and station security then you call ERT. I would completely support their outright removal.

[Azande]

Uh, I was a combat borg. Got taken down in seconds because someone used sprint and a flash... It's not that hard folks.... -1 x a million.

[Garnascus]

Uh, I was a combat borg. Got taken down in seconds because someone used sprint and a flash... It's not that hard folks.... -1 x a million.

 

The nature of borgs makes them extremely weak if you have specific counters to them and extremely strong if you do not.