Give Paramedics general access

[Nantei]

The last thread on this is well over a year old, so I thought it might be prudent to revisit the topic. 

 

Adding mining to Paramedics was a very good change as far as I am concerned, but I do think slightly more access would be a worthwhile idea. As has been suggested before, I think general departmental access to department hallways without giving them access to sensitive areas would be prudent. Basically exactly what Janitors have. I think the benefits are pretty obvious: Paramedics can respond to calls faster, and it's access they arguably should already have.

Where my argument differs is I don't think this will remove their dependence on others for access. Paramedics still won't be able to get into the majority of the workplaces deeper areas so they will still be reliant on another player to let them in unless they are willing to commit a crime and break in. So crew interaction and dependency should not be significantly affected. 

The biggest reason I think this needs to happen is the Science Sublevel. As a human, letting the Paramedic into science when you are in xenobiology is extremely time consuming. This lets the Paramedic meet people in the middle more often, which I would say is a generally positive change.

[GlitterGuts]

I tottally agree. I even made my own thread on it a while back. 

 

[Screemers]

It would make sense to have an access level similar to the janitor one for other departments. I remember some games where I was called non-stop on the general channel to hurry somewhere while being stuck at the door of the department. 

+1

[Carver]

On 23/06/2019 at 13:31, Carver said:

As things are I could argue for giving janitor level access to many roles; Atmospherics Technician, Station Engineer, Cargo Technician, Security Officer, even the Chef and Bartender for catering.

But I'd rather go the route of arguing against janitor access, as the more readily it becomes available, the more trivialized IDs as a whole become. I'm against even the janitor themself having this access as is. As it were, going one way 'standard access' vs. the other 'ease of access' is something that has to be committed to if one wants to maintain some amount of logical sense (Because why would X have this access and not Y?).

I expressed my opinions in the other thread with the exact same request, so I'll simply quote myself to save time.

[Nantei]

The issue I have with that is Paramedics/EMT's need this as part of their core job, and it's an extremely important job where seconds matter. Icly and oocly I don't think it makes much sense to not let them have hallway level access. I can see the argument for removing it from the janitor since their job isn't a critical thing. But this is something I ask for every round as an EMT, and it's been universally approved every time I ask. I think a lot of people agree this should just be a thing.

[GlitterGuts]

1 hour ago, Nantei said:

The issue I have with that is Paramedics/EMT's need this as part of their core job, and it's an extremely important job where seconds matter. Icly and oocly I don't think it makes much sense to not let them have hallway level access. I can see the argument for removing it from the janitor since their job isn't a critical thing. But this is something I ask for every round as an EMT, and it's been universally approved every time I ask. I think a lot of people agree this should just be a thing.

HoPs are always more than happy to give EMTs a little extra beef to their access. Not once have any of them had a problem with it. I can tell you that if a medical borg is on the roster, they almost Always get to the patient first in the brig hallway, cargo lobby, etc because they get caught behind the front door. I know this because I'm almost always that borg ?. It's not from a lack of trying on their part, it from other people being unreliable or slow to respond.

 

8 hours ago, Carver said:

Atmospherics Technician, Station Engineer, Cargo Technician, Security Officer

Engineers basically have discount all-access already, so they dont need ID changes. CTs can just mail their packages, and SOs can ask for "general" access if they want, I just don't think anyone has tried that I've seen

[SatinsPristOTD]

18 hours ago, GlitterGuts said:

HoPs are always more than happy to give EMTs a little extra beef to their access

Then just giving them the access to begin with doesn't ACTUALLY take away from anything. If NT is perfectly okay with the HoP handing out the access, then why don't they come with it already? This is just an unneeded step. You can't say "Well it gives RP with the HoP and the EMT" because it takes all of 3mins to fully RP that out, AND do the paperwork. HoP gets more RP running their two departments.

Cutting out the middle man in order to help save lives (and money) makes sense from an IC perspective.

[Carver]

On 17/07/2019 at 12:21, GlitterGuts said:

Engineers basically have discount all-access already, so they dont need ID changes.

If 'breaking in' counted as discount all-access then more or less every role has general access as-is. Your point on SOs asking for it can also be applied to Paramedics (and Janitors). I retain my point that by pushing for one role to get enhanced access, it opens the door that logically a lot more roles should have it as well. Which, mind you, I'm not wholly against. But you have to commit to either access being far more liberal, or access being restricted (effectively how it was before janitors got access for some inane reason).

Edited July 20, 2019 by Carver
Because Janitors asking to be let in or given access makes more sense than them having it from the get-go whilst no one else does.

[Nantei]

Not really. Tons of places don't have windows and engineers can hack a door in two seconds compared to breaking a window takes well over a minute. Considering how many people are completely fine giving me general access, I really doubt anyone is going to think, "Why doesn't X have general access?" because the reason an EMT/Para has general is fairly obvious. Unlike the janitor where it's more insulting than anything.

[Soultheif96]

I will put it this way, I sooner see janitor lose their access to just being assistant with custodial access as I get sick of janitors entering security and medical without consent, while I see EMT/Paramedics be able to get into departments at a basic level access to SAVE lives faster.

I normally just automate the process of additional access so they get back out there and do what they do, SAVE lives.

This does not mean they should walk into other departments casually for no reason at all and can be considered trespassing if they are not leaving at a verbal expression to leave by personnel residing in the department.

[alexpkeaton]

On its face I think Paramedics absolutely should have basic departmental access.  My only concern is that some traitor main players (or even just powergamers) might abuse this to gain easy access to powergaming goodies.  And while the station can get away with a janitor slacking off, not so much for a paramedic.

 

Was there an uptick of traitoring and/or powergaming among janitors when access was upped for them?

 

I just want to make sure those who actually want to play the role have the opportunity to.  And if they naturally roll traitor too from time to time, that's fine.  But if someone selects the job as a golden ticket to general departmental access AND EVA, that would be a problem.

[tzeneth]

Context for me, I don’t and haven’t played paramedics but discovering they don’t have general access surprises me. They should have it. I’m posting more because of the latter change to janitors.

The amount of times I’ve seen broken lights never reported, messes that were never reported, or cleanup in the medbay while everyone is busy are many. I may also be influenced by the fact I often play during dead times where there isn’t always an AI or an HoP which means I wouldn’t have easy access to certain messes that happen due to pressure backup in the air scrubbers or any other reason but I think janitors SHOULD have general access. Without general access it means that medical can be in a panic due to needing to deal with chaos and leave a mess everywhere while I can’t get in there to keep it clean, like my job is supposed to, without having one of them come over and let me in. I can also think of other examples that fit. It also means my mute janitor is much less viable (because I could do my job without needing to constantly phone in requests for access) which makes me kind of sad because it’s fun to be the silent cleaner, a person who comes in with a smile and wave while they clean up the messes by the drunk visitors, then go to medical and see that they’re busy and clean up the blood from the madness that happened and then do a tour of the station to check in with the various workers. Maybe I’m just one person who’s niche but I like that character and would be sad to have to change or stop playing them (also it’s kind of funny to see who actually takes sign and who doesn’t).

[Arrow768]

PR is here: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/6768

[Garnascus]

I think we have a problem here. When there is a body people tend to fight over it. EMTs are some of the worst who will gladly charge into horrible situations to recover a body even when they might not have all the information available. I am not sure if these consequences will be worth canning the PR but i do think its something we need to be aware of. It is certainly not as easy as "just punish the EMTs who are dumb".

[AmoryBlaine]

More people with more access is good. I would include with this suggestion, giving janitorial more access, and engineering decent access as well, followed by basic access for Security Officers. Easier flow of movement would be nicer for all these jobs, and I don't see it being a detriment, given they'd lack specific access to individual rooms.

[GreenBoi]

Please don't remove general dept. access for janitors. I haven't seen anyone in the past 6 months get antag janitor and even use the access all that much. It's not like they have access to individual offices and the most they use half the time is usually just a free medkit lying around in medbay triage.

[ferner]

I am very much against removing access from janitors, and I think we should be moving towards less access needed to get places rather than more.
Janitor has always been a good newbie job for getting to know the facility and it should be kept that way. There's enough paranoia from players when they see someone somewhere they maybe should not be and instantly shouting out for security.

[Snoopy11]

I'm neutral for the EMTs, I don't think it's something necessarily required, but also sometimes needed.  Something more granular such as a head of staff function on a laptop to grant certain job/s free access to their department seems a better alternative.

 

On the other hand I'm against janitors having their access removed, it's a boring job, an easy job that anyone can do, and gives the few a feeling for the place.  I've not seen it abused since it's implementation, and the janitors themselves have hardly been annoying with it.

 

Perhaps this should be split in two, as on is a removal, one is an addition.

[Nantei]

5 hours ago, Garnascus said:

EMTs are some of the worst who will gladly charge into horrible situations to recover a body even when they might not have all the information available. 

This statement confuses me. I don't see the inherent issue in a character doing something reckless and getting into trouble for it. One time I ran into research to free some security officers who were stuck. I accidentally leg actuator'd into four raiders on crossfire, middle of a hostage situation, and it made my, and their round better. I could have stopped to ask if it was safe, but not doing so and potentially getting into trouble made for a better story.

 

The only issue I can see here is people rushing to grab a body while being shot, but we have rules for this and I don't think general access makes it any more prevalent; especially since most will attest I'm getting brig access almost every shift anyways. It's really just more undue burden on the HoP.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Nantei

[Garnascus]

5 minutes ago, Nantei said:

The only issue I can see here is people rushing to grab a body while being shot, but we have rules for this and I don't think general access makes it any more prevalent;

Administrative action is only ever reactive. An EMT has a reason and a skillset to go chasing after injured people in dangerous situations. Said person will now have access to every single department. All this is going to do is hamper antags more and end rounds quicker. 

[Scheveningen]

I do not support this. Emergency response jobs have the largest impact on the round and need that access gating in order to create challenge to their job and also prevent people from abusing said authority with nearly instant responses to every given case on the station.

I do not support the removal of janitor access either. Janitors get where they need to go on their own time, and their impact on the round barely compares to that of EMT/engineers/officers.

[stev]

I'm ambivalent about the EMT access (even as an EMT main) but I'm definitely against the janitor change. For janitors who actually RP, dept access is great - as a janitor, you really need to actively interact with a lot of people to get much RP. Stuff like wiping down the windows in the Science corridor is one such way that'd be removed with the Janitor access nerf.

Edited July 22, 2019 by stev

[Doxxmedearly]

Strongly against removing access from janitors as noted in the PR, for the reasons the Schev and stev pointed out.

For EMTs, I think they should have access to the two areas they're always called: Mining (Done) and through the way to xenobio. General access is concerning, and I echo Garn. 

[Kryostro]

If you remove Janitor access, I will rein unholy fire upon these lands that have never been seen for hundreds of years. 

It's like Janitors having access to a building, if they repeatedly have to ask for access to go and clean in places that have dirt in them, it'll have a IC and OOC annoyance and inconvenience more then the inconvenience of the unlikely situation where Janitor see something bad. Blue man then bad. 

Other then the memes, it's not a good idea to remove general access. This thread was literally 'give paramedics access, why do janitors get more access then us' as a way of expressing how absurd it is. That doesn't mean remove general access for a job.

The fact that you have to tell a janitor to leave is alright if they're obviously rubbernecking, but that you want to remove the issue entirely is absurd by just removing their capability of independently entering departments to clean on their freewill without having to be actually beckoned. @Soultheif96

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Kryostro

[Nantei]

9 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Administrative action is only ever reactive. An EMT has a reason and a skillset to go chasing after injured people in dangerous situations. Said person will now have access to every single department. All this is going to do is hamper antags more and end rounds quicker. 

I've heard this a few times and I still do not get why people think antags are shut down by EMT's retrieving dying people. Yes, they go through medbay quicker, but they are still out of the round for likely ten or so minutes. Considering I get this access constantly and don't shut down antags, I really can't understand the argument at all. Are we really upset that less people die and stay in the round? If an antag really wants to execute, I am almost certainly not going to be able to stop them. I had this a few days ago with someone breaking antag rules by not roleplaying at all with victims. They shot the captain wordlessly, I responded to try and save his life, they shot me wordlessly, I ran away, Captain still died. It's not hard to keep an EMT away from your victim unless they are rule breaking.

 

I agree about janitors, but I think the idea that EMT's with general access that almost every HoP/CMO agrees they should have—I have literally never been denied—are going to damage things in any significant way is silly to me. This is already how tons of EMT players operate, this just makes it less obnoxious. I think at the very least we should try giving them general access and review the change later. Because my own experience heavily contradicts the concept that this is damaging.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Nantei