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[FEEDBACK] Roundstart AI removal


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The issue with cameras and the counterplay argument regarding that, is that each camera has its own randomized wires for what has respective functions attached to each wire. Similar to how secure doors function, every camera has randomized wires. This is an incredibly irritating stealth fact that makes cutting cameras quietly a very time-consuming and almost not worth it task.

You can avoid tripping the camera alarm wire by only pulsing wires to get a feel for which one is the alarm, which will not set the camera alarm off for the respective camera. Theoretically you can just cut every single wire that is not the camera wire, but this is still work. You can get a rhythm down to almost reaction-time with practice, but it is not every day you quietly dismantle a camera, so most people aren't gonna be in practice.

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9 minutes ago, geeves said:

Most of this is rulebreaking behaviour.

 

6 minutes ago, sonicgotnuked said:

If the AI is giving you shit, kill it. Place an emmiter in the command bunker and laugh while it fries in its core. 

Will I manage to argue just using quotes? Maybe in a couple of minutes.

Engineers and Miners know this: AI goes "kill kill", they go and kill the AI.

If you are unsure whether or not your idea breaks a rule: Ahelp

Roboticists have the strongest RCD right now and might even hand it out instead of sending the next Gygax to their early destruction.

7 minutes ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

"Feed distortion"? Cameras could become unreliable. They're cheaply made and quick as the devil to build. What if some areas just became static NATURALLY. It doesn't have to be overly done or extremely common, but the occurrence could be enough that any AI would just see it as "ahh, my camera's out for a minute or two".

A creative and new Idea. I like it, we need more of this and less removal ;)

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Bruh just whitelist it, I have no idea why people would want to remove the AI when whitelisting it would solve a lot of problems. Just make it an easy to get whitelist. Like a step one whitelist. Like a "prove you know how to use the forums and click buttons on the station" whitelist.

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Why not make this a conjoined whitelist for Synth and Command? It's actually really great for 'borgs to have a hierarchy they can defer to without constantly PMing heads. Alternatively, creating a master 'borg like Kyres had planned to do before he resigned would also fill this void. 

There are lots of good arguments for whitelisting the AI vs removal, this is a nuclear approach that is extremely excessive. 

Read here: https://forums.aurorastation.org/topic/11613-whitelist-the-ai/

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The AI is a pretty well loved as a role by many, and removing it will mean alienating a lot of very good players. Big, big no from me. Whitelist it if you must, but the AI makes lowpop a hell of a lot more tolerable, and I rarely have issues with it as an antag.

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1- I find the AI fits more often a beneficial role in rounds than a negative one, not even counting Malf. The ability to subvert the AI allows many interesting Ideas and the AI can be tricked in different ways, I generally have a backup plan against pesky door-bolsters, but arent more concerned about them than sec. A camera glitch idea like stated above would be more interesting than removing an entire role. Realistically i find it unlikely that a company like NT would have so many cameras if there wouldn't be an AI to handle them, or sec would have easier ways to cover a lot of feed. The AI can spot you doing bad things, but so can janitor Luis who wanted to scrub maintenance. As said i prefer options like the camera Jam over complete removal.

2- I dont care much personaly, if its powergamed in some way (which i wouldnt even know how) it can be removed, if the third borg rarely gets anything to do people wont choose to play stationbound with two already in and no clearly lacking departments

 

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I also agree that the AI is unhealthy for the game. It is frustrating when a role exists that is geared toward validhunting. If someone tells you to lock down the antag then you have to do it. You can also be a weiner and spy on all the dangerous areas that antags love to break into. Its not against the rules and your laws back up your actions. I think allowing it to still be constructed and having three cyborgs is a fair compromise. 

Though i will say that if it was the will of the people to keep the AI it would be pretty lame to remove it. 

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I definitely am in agreement that AI as it is currently implemented is harmful to the game, especially when it comes to antags. Too often I have seen AIs instantly bolt down an antagonist at the first sign of trouble. And why shouldn’t they? It would be breaking their laws to let the antag run rampant. You can argue that proper preparation can allow you to avoid some of this — Removing cameras (VERY time consuming to do stealthily, and anyone who argues different is wrong), mapping wires (it still takes time to hack doors. Time security has to come after you). Or setting up signallers for escape routes, which still requires large amounts of preparation and only gives you fixed avenues of movement — but the fact of the matter is that if there’s an AI, the job of the antagonist is exponentially more difficult.

 

I am not saying the AI has to be REMOVED, but the state in which it exists leaves too much room for abuse while still operating within the confines of our rules. I don’t really know personally how it can be fixed, but I think that overall, people don’t want to see the AI removed. They’ve also been (generally) incredibly resistant to a whitelist until this point, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. 

 

If it were up to me I’d probably remove it, but I would be content if we reworked some factors to better facilitate antagonist freedom instead. Perhaps fewer cameras in connecting areas (they don’t really need to see every part of every hallway do they?), the ability to have cameras cut out for a few minutes randomly (or through antag influence). And perhaps the implementation of “standard” cameras across most the station (fixed wiring so they can be easily and stealthily disabled), with “high security” cameras implemented how cameras work now, with randomized wires. The high security cameras could even be prevented from cutting out so the AI can always see its key areas. Finally, I think the AI should be whitelisted under the head of staff whitelist.

Overall, I think removing it would solve the problem, but I don’t like the cost at which this approach demands, and should be saved for a last resort. 

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Honestly, fuck it. Cut it. 

I've played servers and rounds without active AIs before and felt that it was a improvement. Antags can be more gung ho or open without having to fear a machine peering in and fucking them over, encourages less overactive caution, and it's less of a headache to deal with being wanted when there isn't some bot constantly scanning for you. No AI and no doorbot means that sec has to work closer with the crew for access or finding people( Or just grab a borg to help out.). The cat and mouse game that antag rounds become is better. Constant fear of the AI or reliance on it just drags down the server, and the best way to deal with it for now is cutting out the tumor and finding solutions to deal with any fallout of it. 

Regarding implementation, I figure keeping the number of borgs at the same level is fine. No need for any extras. If science wants to create a new AI, sure! Just need some new regulation around that and maybe change up resource costs so they aren't somehow producing a station running robot out of their asses whenever mercs/raiders hit up. Malf is a game mode that I doubt many would miss. The AI core area could be changed to just a section for borgs and/or robot upkeep. Then, you could probably introduce some lore reason for AIs going off the station and perhaps find some avenue for AI players to shift their characters to another synth form. 

At the very least, I would love a whitelist that's either it's own thing or connected to Command. 

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I'd rather have the AI be whitelisted than outright removed due to how useful it can be as a teaching tool, pointing things out for new players where they might otherwise be stuck and otherwise being generally useful during a round.

Another thing it helps with is locking down overly hostile antags. Currently the only thing that stops a hyperzine fuelled borderline murderboning antag that steals the spare ID at roundstart is an AI. Hacking doors isn't tricky, either. So it's not like if an AI locks a door for a moment your round is over - just plan for it (screwdriver, multitool, cutters + gloves).

One thing I would suggest is remove shocking doors. That has no purpose other than to fuck with antags/people antagging and CAN actually shut down someone's round (depending on how silly engineering are being with the grid load).

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5 hours ago, SHODAN said:

One thing I would suggest is remove shocking doors.

whole hardheartedly agree with this. As well as the ability to remove the safeties of a door. Why the absolute fuck does a regular AI have this ability? Give it to malf.

Instead of Removing it, Fix it.

1)Try the Feed Disruption suggestion. (The thread for it's gotten some decent feed back!)
2)Remove the ability to shock doors
3)Remove the ability to remove safeties


An even more.... harsh nerf would be to make the AI's Cameras work like the security cameras. You have to search through a list of cameras and view. No zipping around like a crack addict. We'd keep the ability to "jump" to a name in chat, but the AI's camera system could become fixed, not free ghost roam.

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Lots of good discussion here. If anything, this PR is encouraging action against long-standing problems.

While I personally am against the removal of such a well-liked role, I'm not against removals as a solution in general. "Improve, don't remove" is a buzzphrase that ends with a lot of dead or obnoxious code, mechanics, and problems. It's very easy to say when you don't code. Sometimes you can fix a broken item. Sometimes you need to throw it away. I'm not saying that removal is the right decision in this specific instance, but it's not an idea we should shy away from when it comes to development; sometimes removal is improvement for the server.

Adding another borg slot is meh. We don't need that many. People have already made good points as to why. Most of my opinion in general has been summed up by flamingo. 

AI definitely needs nerfs if it is to stay. Satin's post above this one is a good start- items one-three are good ideas. I'd keep ghost roam for ease of use, personally, but we could do without so many cameras. This gives antags (or just shady non-antags) a bit for freedom with blind spots against anyone monitoring cams, too. If bolting is the problem, perhaps adding a delay to when the AI decides to bolt and when it actually does would provide more lenience (No idea if that's even practical to code). Another thought would be to adjust the AI lawset, though I think this would be pretty tricky to nail down. Just something to consider, regardless.

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Oh, wow, this is reaching another boiling point. AI is literally the sole reason some rounds get an engine set up, usually involving giving an apprentice instruction. People who are bad at it usually don't play it. If they do, why haven't you ahelped yet?

Also, why the heck don't people try any even minorly creative ideas when dealing with the AI?

In reply to: 

On 17/10/2019 at 09:44, geeves said:

Most of this is rulebreaking behaviour.

Some of that is, yeah, but It outlines how many options aren't being explored to shut down the eye in the sky. There's no logical reason to remove it, other than complaining about antags, but so many people on this server hold that "You don't need antags to rp" that I find catering to them in such a kneejerk way to be ridiculously out of touch with the spirit of aurora's setting, it's playerbase, and the way it enforces it's rules.

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Changelog for the above PR.
* Remotely bolting an airlock is no longer instant, taking THREE seconds to finish. The airlock announces when this process begins.
* Airlocks can no longer be remotely electrified.
* Forcefields can no longer be machine overloaded.

Edited by geeves
updated changelog
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4 hours ago, geeves said:

Changelog for the above PR.

* AI can no longer hotkey click to bolt or electrify airlocks. They have to use the menu to do these actions.
* Remotely bolting an airlock is no longer instant, taking THREE seconds to finish. The airlock announces when this process begins.
* Airlocks can no longer be remotely electrified.
* Forcefields can no longer be machine overloaded.

These are fantastic and even as a 'borg player I feel they'll make it a lot more fair for Antags and even the Crew when the AI is malf.

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6 hours ago, geeves said:

Changelog for the above PR.

* AI can no longer hotkey click to bolt or electrify airlocks. They have to use the menu to do these actions.
* Remotely bolting an airlock is no longer instant, taking THREE seconds to finish. The airlock announces when this process begins.
* Airlocks can no longer be remotely electrified.
* Forcefields can no longer be machine overloaded.

First of all the PR they are referencing is this: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/7199, they posted the wrong one.

Only two problems I have with this is how airlocks cannot be remotely electrified, perhaps have a six second cooldown followed by announcment? 

2nd problem is the airlock announcement, perhaps have it so turning off bolt lights turns off the announcement as well?

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1 minute ago, ben10083 said:

First of all the PR they are referencing is this: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/7199, they posted the wrong one.

Only two problems I have with this is how airlocks cannot be remotely electrified, perhaps have a six second cooldown followed by announcment? 

2nd problem is the airlock announcement, perhaps have it so turning off bolt lights turns off the announcement as well?

Oh right, good catch.

There is a debate over that, but, nothing's swaying me to believe that remote electrification is in any way good. It can probably be added in the future as a malf ability.

Wouldn't you just turn off bolt lights, then bolt the airlock, circumventing the point entirely?

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I do agree with all proposed changes except for removal of remote electrification, as it's a potent tool that above all serves as the primary reason for Insulated Gloves to be used by non-engineers. I'd also remove the ability to overload APCs/SMES units, but that's about all I have for feedback.

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I do not support this. The recent trend to outright remove things people find annoying or abused in certain niche circumstances is a bit concerning. The security borg is included in this. Just ahelp if a player is being a shitter, don't remove things that good players enjoy because a few bad apples ruined your good time.

I'd rather see AI whitelisted instead of this proposal. However nerfing certain functions of the AI I am okay with.

As for roundstart AI blowing antags cover, maybe make it so it takes a little while for the camera systems to come online in various areas, or make it so the AI player has their own roundstart bootup sequence they need to do, slowly enabling their vision network.

Edited by StationCrab
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