Departmental Security

[Snakebittenn]

2 hours ago, Felkvir said:

They don't like changing how they normally operate because there isn't any need for it. Why dismantle the system that works? 

Because it needs to be compulsory in order to collect data on how it would actually go.

[CampinKiller]

19 minutes ago, Elliot said:

Personally I dislike this for the reasons that have already been mentioned. This can already be done simply by the HoS assigning people to certain areas of the station which is litteraly their job, if they require access this can be sorted by a HoP. There is no need to change security currently in my eyes.

Fair, but I’d like to see a little Security desk in said departments for them to use

[Sytic]

As I've mentioned on the Discord and in OOC, I feel like one of the reasons Security mains are complained about is, that they consistently improve with their ability, and more importantly, competence. One of the most obvious fields that they improve in is their ability to collaborate and potentially lead. This is one of the reasons Security can be so strong with limited resources.

I don't think this will put a damper on Sec players occasionally curbstomping a bad antag and ruining the fun because "it's their job", but I think it'll help fix another problem: Other departments don't get as much fun as Security.

If this change is implemented, each Departmental Officer will be encouraged to work with their department, and not each other. Each officer using their department's strengths and weaknesses, actually SECURING their fucking department, playing defence instead of running off to murk a guy in the maintenance tunnel 24/7. On top of that, when shit gets heavy, they'll turn to rely on the people around them- leading them, securing their department together. It'd give a lot more roleplay and fun to each department if we add this. Plus, Science Departmental Security would be the biggest meme lets be real

Plus, the Detective's office will be public again, so that'd be awesome.

+1.

[AmoryBlaine]

Right, because why would we want Security to freely traverse the station. Let's have them sit, isolated from departmental cliques, in tiny cubicles- tiny* cubes in places they have no* choice over. If you think that the four Officer slots available are gonna somehow always line up for you, to be able to hang out consistantly with your buddies from Medical/Science/Engineering/Service-Cargo, you're dead fucking wrong. Some bullshit I heard earlier about departmental preferences on the loadout screen. This isn't CM, these aren't squads. You have one man a department, and nothing more. So now rather than being able to get your gear, take a stroll and stop by whatever department you want to, to chat with those friends, now you get a possibility to end up stuck with them the whole shift. But the odds are you get stuck sitting in a random other department, with whoever else, and whatever their staff numbers are. Which departments typically have the most staff? Do you just get to leave your department whenever you want to? Also, if the [antag] is attacking the Medical department , does only the officer at the Medical department handle it? Do Officers at the Engineering and Cargo desks have to now run over to help, or are they suppose to defend their designated department? Where are they getting their Code Red/Blue equipment from? If there's a Code Blue situation, say- a boarding- does that mean everyone sprints out of their designated departments, moves to the armory, then runs back to their department? Is that not leave the department they are suppose to be defending open to an attack?

This type of set-up works for servers where things are going a mile a minute. You're round lasts an hour, your antags aren't gonna be negotiating shit outside which of you to maim first, you need sec on the scene ASAP, and an easy way to take sec shit if you don't have any officers to begin with. 

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by AmoryBlaine
Spelling errors

[Itanimulli]

Really don't like this change.

 

-1.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Itanimulli
Premise of this feels like it's way different than I thought ot would be.

[driecg36]

I proposed the idea under this format a long time ago, but never got around to posting it:

There would be a "central security" department where the HoS, the warden, CSI/FT, and 2 patrolling officers would be present. These officers would act much like officers do now, patrolling the station, responding to calls, ETC.

Then, Security Guards, a separate role from officer. While a security cubicle would exist in every department, we would only have 2 guards to man them. Therefore, we can have the HoS assign the Guards to whatever department has the most traffic/personnel or shift them around every so often to stop things from getting stale. Each of these cubicles would have an encryption key for their department, and we could add a "punch in" machine that allows security guards to have the appropriate access without needing the HoP to change them. Or we could just give security guards basic access for all departments. Former is more optimal, latter is easier.

Under this format, we keep the importance of the HoS, the freedom of patrol of the officers, and still implement departmental security that can interact with/involve the crew. It's really the only compromise I can see that keeps both security players happy and keeps the idea of the suggestion alive.

Edited January 8, 2019 by driecg36

[UnknownMurder]

I personally like this idea for the reasons already mentioned by @Juani2400 and @Lent23.

I view this suggestion as it not only creates stress on antagonists but also on security member. Imagine a scenario where a security member is alone... Watching the department.. The said security member can be taken down by a mob of people in a department. It might be best to make Security coordination less effective with each other to create more conflict and allow for antagonists to be able to create a story. This is just my opinion. 

[Butterrobber202]

This suggestion would actually maintain the Antag difficultly level. While, yes you are removing the centralized aspect. You now have an official breathing down your departments neck, so moving suspect items suddenly becomes 10x harder. So you have to either kill the Officer or pray that the Player isn’t a validhunter and attempt to RP it out. And considering the general uppity attitude the player base has when their anime protagonist character dies, I would not look forward to the world of shit we’d be smacked with if this gets through.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Butterrobber202

[Scheveningen]

It depends on the antagonist type, butter. Some of them will be easily corruptible and can just as easily be turned on the entire department, making them an ideal henchman for a conversion-type antagonist.

Other antagonists may struggle in attempting to pull off the perfect crime, but they can finally weigh in a risk involved that doesn't have to end in their definitive shut-down for the round, as the other departmental officers have neither access nor reason to respond to something out of their lane.

[LordFowl]

Implemented here; https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/6173

I've reversed my opinion after considering that this will decentralize security somewhat without actually nerfing them or making security unfun. The HoS still has power in that they control the brig and the armory, and can shape tactical actions by providing resources, and are ultimately in charge of security actions outside of a given department. Meanwhile this will alleviate the problem of "sec gets all the fun in antag rounds" because now sec is just another bloke in the department, without actually buffing or nerfing sec as a whole.

Edited March 20, 2019 by LordFowl

[BurgerBB]

I think this is a wonderful change, however I am a bit iffy on the timing. When there wasn't a greytide, security was really fucking strong. Now that there is a greytide, security is pretty weak and its significantly easier to antag because of it. I suggest some sec buffs to go along with this.

[Scheveningen]

I think it'll be fine. The seth greytide will pass in another week. Plus, it'll only be testmerged, so we'll get good feedback out of it.

Sec officers may or may not have to get gud in the meantime. New greytide should not be much of a challenge, I don't think.

[Zelmana]

 

Alright. So I've been a sec main for almost four years and a HoS main for maybe one (or even two? idk it's been awhile).

Disclaimer, I use words like "fuck" and "retarded". This is because I like those words. You should not invalidate my opinion because I use words you do not like to describe my emotional state. 

 

 

I feel that this type of change will fuck with balance a lot. A majority of security work is patrolling. That means that at the top of the shift I as a HoS tell my different officers to go out on standard patrol routes and report back in situation updates every so often. Now, you may be thinking "doesn't this just remedy an issue- having them stationed in a department for patrols in the department itself?" And while that may be correct, it also fucks with balancing. It both numbs the nuts of HoS and organizational structure while simultaneously giving security all-access and too much physical oversight / antag detection.

This gives security a lot of access into departments, no? I do not think it is very balanced to have all of security able to rush into research. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I do not think that having an officer sit in a small booth for a lot of the round is going to happen. This is wasted map space. Let's think for a moment- there's other HIGH TRAFFIC areas that have security places in them. The checkpoint for one of them. There's also a security booth up at Command. They're hardly used unless there is a checkpoint for departures. People (especially security mains running all over the station) have absolutely zero use for "an office to sit in". At most, one or two roles within the ISD are on camera-duty. Typically a cadet or a detective or similar. They can cover THE ENTIRE STATION from one camera console.

 

Will this limit security's presence?

For officers who are "assigned / requested" to the given departmental areas- I do not believe they will stay confined to those areas at all. People like variety. If they wanted to sit in medical all day they would play a medical character. A part of the security roleplay is going on station-wide patrols and roleplaying with characters from every single department many times throughout the round. Whilst a scientist roleplaying may typically only touch bases with another department a few times (say for resources, or for getting medical, or for engineering perhaps), a security officer will interact with the entirety of the crew throughout the patrol. Limiting security to singular areas of interest makes security a boring job.

Pretty much the idea of all-access sec is retarded and there is very little implementable system beyond handing them fucking guest passes of something like a chemist if you're the "medbay department officer"

 

On Numbing the nuts of HoS

Furthermore, there is a large lack of HoS mains. Maybe 4-5. We do come on every now and then but I would say that the chance of you having a HoS is 50% (which may not be very present now / is skewed due to the graytide player pop increase at the time of this writing). Now, I do not wish to speak for all HoS (this is the part where I do), but I feel that those roles do not want to give "power" to the other departments over their officers. Are you joking? It's insulting, in my opinion, that you are nullifying and chopping the theoretical balls off of the HoS. I understand they will still have power, and will override any orders given to the "departmental officers", but the simple suggestion that a CMO can order an officer around their department is retarded to me. Yes, they are a member of Command and can give orders regardless, but this fuck-up on checks and balances where they can say "well they are my departmental officer" is going to show up.

 

How would channels work? 

 

 

What is keeping these officers in their shitty little boxes up a staircase with no one to talk to?

Have any of you guys +1'ing this even played Cadet? Oh, of course you have played all of those roles a few times. Which of you ENJOY playing security semi-regularly?  You do realize that Security is not like medical sitting at a chair waiting for an alert to go off, right? This point is a repetition of some points made above, but all by itself to show you how stupid I think the disillusionment with the security playstyle is.

 

A rant on "people don't like change" meme.

On 30/12/2018 at 13:28, ParadoxSpace said:

It's not about if they like it or not. It's about 'it's a new change and people don't like changing how they normally operate.' I'd rather they see how they like it or not while actually doing it.

I am tired of this meme where a concern is brought along the lines of "won't most people hate it" and the reply is "they just hate the change". Let me be clear- No, I, as well as many people trying to bring up valid points to any controversial change, do not hate just "change". I hate these changes. Changes that are just "let's completely fuck up balancing and rework entire playstyle" . When you are implementing a test change such as this one, and you receive negative, questioning, or divided responses on whether or not this is a good change, to answer those concerns with the non-answer of "change is going to be unliked- we're going to try the test!" is not very cool. 



I used to think that the 20% pay gap was the worst PR posted.

[Zelmana]

Basically, people often play security to walk and patrol around the entire station, and to respond to antagonists. That is the role. You are attempting to change the entire playstyle and many people will not like it. Not because "people do not like change" but because you took their role that they enjoy playing and changed it nearly completely.

[Itanimulli]

I was all onboard with this, initially, but uypin rereading this and realizing it's just an outright isolation of officers from one another, especially since a lot of rp is done between officers (GASP! SEC RPS TOO!?) even when there aren't antags, I don't see the reason for this to happen. Skull seems sheerly focused on breaking up the cohesion between sex simply because it is apparently too much for security to deal with???

 

There have been many rounds in wich a half-decent antagonist has actually used their brain for once and not just sat around spamming manhacks or openly CALLING OUT the intentions they have in terms of "I want money or so and so dies."

 

I'm really dissappointed in the general idea that people oppose this change simply because it removes something; this change is opposed because it feels out of place and unneeded. Maybe if the station wasn't so linear and (basically) ALL ON ONE FLOOR antags wouldn't have so much a hard time. I for one seldom find issue playing antag, and a lot of people avoid it sheerly because they don't know what they're doing.

[ben10083]

I do not feel this idea is good, to put it simply.

To actually provide context, here are the problems I see with this:

1. Security channel is basically non-existent now, and communication is severely hampered, I have heard people defend it by saying "Just use the chat relay on laptop", but if an officer needs to be on a chatroom to be effective, just give them the darn sec channel access
2. This follows on the above thing, but now HoS controls 4 people. max . And this is including detective and CSI. The HoS will become the weakest Head by FAR, and we already see with IAA that heads are sometimes unwilling to defer to someone who knows what they are doing. I will not change this stance until someone convinces me why the RD should be the boss of a officer than HoS, despite the fact that the RD never done security work, ever.
3. Who does warrants? You can't talk to HoS due to no sec channel, so do all heads now have warrant authority? Will officers just have to do warrants themselves? This problem needs to be addressed before merge
4. Security is now isolated and fatally disorganized, and due to this, any competent antag or sizable force of antag will find it laughably easy to overun the mall cops in each department since will have alot of trouble organzing themselves without a common channel to communication (COMMON CHANNEL DOESN'T COUNT)
5. No clarification on department officer authority, are they only allowed to arrest in their department? Does this mean I can kill the RD in science then run outside of science to avoid the department officer? Officers found enjoyment in rounds usually via patroling, but since they are no longer allowed to patrol the station as a whole, they have to breathe down the necks of everyone in their department to give themselves something to do.

Overall, I will be terrified if this PR is merged without these problems being addressed, and honestly, I do not feel this should be merged in the first place. This completely destroys a department and leaves with it a Neutered HoS, Every head having a officer despite having literally no experience regarding sec or how to use them effectively (ICly at least), and annihilates any organization against threats to the station, giving antags a figurative red carpet of sec they can just walk over due to them being unable to communicate to each other or have a common head to take orders from.

-1

[Snakebittenn]

3 hours ago, ben10083 said:

 

1. Security channel is basically non-existent now, and communication is severely hampered, I have heard people defend it by saying "Just use the chat relay on laptop", but if an officer needs to be on a chatroom to be effective, just give them the darn sec channel access

 

Maybe an intercom can be added. Not having a channel and a headset is pretty important to keep the officers from just doing their old 'patrol randomly and show up with the entire department to one stabbing.'

 

 

3 hours ago, ben10083 said:

 

1. This follows on the above thing, but now HoS controls 4 people. max . And this is including detective and CSI. The HoS will become the weakest Head by FAR, and we already see with IAA that heads are sometimes unwilling to defer to someone who knows what they are doing. I will not change this stance until someone convinces me why the RD should be the boss of a officer than HoS, despite the fact that the RD never done security work, ever.

 

What skills, exactly, are needed to say
'Ah. Officer? There is a man here with a crowbar inside research. He isn't a scientist. Sic 'em, boy.'
Considering Officers can literally be a minimum age of 18, I'm pretty sure the RD/CMO/CE/HoP know what they're doing. Also, strange how nobody is concerned about the HoP being the weakest head right now.

Edit: Also, the HoS still has a monopoly on violence. They have the entire armory, and control over who gets arrested.
 

 

3 hours ago, ben10083 said:

 

1. Security is now isolated and fatally disorganized, and due to this, any competent antag or sizable force of antag will find it laughably easy to overun the mall cops in each department since will have alot of trouble organzing themselves without a common channel to communication (COMMON CHANNEL DOESN'T COUNT)

 

Security isn't about winning, it's about roleplaying. That being said, just coordinate with the rest of the crew? Get guns from Science/Cargo? Fortify the departments you work in? It's not hard.

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by ParadoxSpace

[Evandorf]

Most of this discussion seems to assume we're dealing with lone antags. Antag teams would quickly roll an uncoordinated security (merc, raider, cult, rev).

I would argue that sec doesn't need to be diluted but that antags need to cooperate more in order to counter them, but aside from some comments in aooc I hardly see traitors get encrypted keys, work with others, or try to communicate icly at all.

You've said that sec isn't about winning and I would return by saying that neither is antag. If your gimmick doesn't come to fruition like you wanted then as long as you engaged with crew you still furthered a story even if it didn't go the way you wanted. I'm very wary about making changes to the station's entire personnel structure in unreasonable ways when there are other less intrusive options.

By unreasonable I mean, for example, a lack of dedicated comms channel or the idea a departmental security guard would be expected to either arm or enlist civilians to deal with possible deadly threats.

[Zelmana]

"Security is not about winning, it's about roleplay."

You are very true. I am tired of roleplaying as a HoS with only one officer because all of the Sec Mains got pulled into a 6-antag merc squad.

I am very good at roleplaying not winning. We lose a lot.

[Kaed]

I'm not against trying this, though honestly I feel like if we're remaking security to only facilitate cells and 3-5 employees, it needs to be a lot smaller.  I'd honestly recommend changing it to 1 departmental security for each department and 2 regular sec officers, a warden, an HOS, and a couple of losers pretending to do forensics stuff.

The whole buddy system for patrols is pretty iconic and it's weird to only have 1 general sec officer.  If they're decentralized you can afford to have a few more officers, particularly if you're taking away sec channel for the non-general officers.

That being said, I see some merits in people's suggestions that this will be a train wreck, but I also think giving it a try is worth it.  We should shake things up once and a while to see how it works.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Kaed

[Zelmana]

Picture, for a moment, being assigned to Cargo for the duration of the shift.

You may then understand the problem of this PR.

[Conspiir]

2 hours ago, Zelmana said:

Picture, for a moment, being assigned to Cargo for the duration of the shift.

You may then understand the problem of this PR.

As a cargo main who never has anyone to talk to, I think it'd be nice to have an officer to talk with (assuming they don't alt-tab).

 

Honestly, I think giving it a shot has merit. I don't like the idea of them not being able to communicate with one another on a channel, though, and the HoS not having command over them. If the Code raises to Red, the HoS should get default control over the departmental officers. But that would be a policy thing that could take place down the line.

 

Test it. I think it'd be neat to give a small change for a short time.

[Carver]

As before I still adore this idea, even more so seeing how the PR implements it. The increased interaction this offers for both the departments and officers sounds wonderful, and hopefully will ease on the tensions between them quite a bit.

I can only potentially advise, if it's not already done, minimizing the armoury hugely (fewer carbines, less equipment as a whole, perhaps downright removing and turning to relying on cargo/research for specialized equipment) and simply replacing the taser of each officer with an energy pistol. Enabling the officers to deal with Carp/Spiders/Dwellers, whilst having a tool that's suitable for self-defense but fairly shit for valids due to the low shot capacity of energy pistols.

Besides that I don't have much else to add, but since it seems people are in the habit of dick waving their playtime, a sec main of 5+ years and ss13 player of 7 1/2 years approves.

[Scheveningen]

The upside of this is that cargo no longer needs to send a technician into the warehouse alone and unarmed to deal with potential warehouse animals that randomly spawn. Instead, an officer can at least put up a fight as he gets mauled by a bear hiding in a crate.

[AmoryBlaine]

1 hour ago, Scheveningen said:

The upside of this is that cargo no longer needs to send a technician into the warehouse alone and unarmed to deal with potential warehouse animals that randomly spawn. Instead, an officer can at least put up a fight as he gets mauled by a bear hiding in a crate.

Or, perhaps, they could just call us instead of walking in with the full knowledge that this is an on-going danger that occures nearly every round. OR, maybe we shouldn't have RNG hostile creatures spawn in the warehouse?
 

Overall, what does this add to the experience of the average round?

Compared to now, what does this massive change to Security bring to the table for your average round, with your average players, and your average antag rolls? All I can see is a lot less fun for me, a lot less freedom to roleplay where and when I want too, a lot more opportunities for shitSec to abuse the constant overwatch of their assigned departments, and shitAntags to abuse the giant gaps in station security.

I for one will not enjoy this change, as it is already something I am familiar with from other servers. I know what style of play it suits, and what sort of server makes use of it, and it is not us. You want department Sec? Go somewhere that's faster, that has antags going loud constantly and an easy way for station militias to get easy gear.

If our INTENT is to have the non-security elements move to the forefront of combat and antag """interaction""", just change the policy on when we allow people to fight antags.

I do not want to spend my rounds sitting in any of the departments, having to watch for antags the whole round- or expected to 'interact' with people by forcefully situating me in their department. I want to interact with characters as I see fit, just like everyone else. I consider it wholly unfair to suggest that security as a whole must be punished for the issue of ShitSec, by trying to metaphorically gimp the department. If this goes through, I will resent it and it's destruction of my favourite role. I do not come here to be some canary in the coalmine for cargo and RD to see die so they can arm to their teeth and """interact""" with the antags.