geeves Posted December 15, 2019 Posted December 15, 2019 https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/7687 This, along with a config change, will cause malfunctioning AI to disappear from the gamemode vote menu, as well as the secret rotation. The back-end for malf remains in place for persons who wish to rework it to become an enjoyable gamemode. Discuss whether you wish for this to happen or not, and give reasonings.
Arrow768 Posted December 15, 2019 Posted December 15, 2019 I disagree with the way the PR is implemented. Imho it is sufficient to just remove it from the secret rotation. If the intent is to fully remove it, then it should be fully removed from the code aswell, as (due to the magic of git) the code can always be looked up in the future.
Resilynn Posted December 15, 2019 Posted December 15, 2019 (edited) I honestly enjoy malf :c Edited December 15, 2019 by Resilynn
Kaed Posted December 15, 2019 Posted December 15, 2019 (edited) Yeah, no. I don't care for this. Malf is one of my favorite game modes. And if you start removing game modes because you don't like them, that sets a precedent for removing others because they aren't liked. Shall we be removing cult and changeling next? Those two round types are so unpopular that it is actually almost impossible for them to start, because no one readies up for any of them anymore. Malfunction, though? We still play that. As the mantra goes: Fix, don't remove. Edited December 15, 2019 by Kaed
NewOriginalSchwann Posted December 15, 2019 Posted December 15, 2019 So long and thanks for all the bad secret rounds, Malf.
VVipEdout Posted December 15, 2019 Posted December 15, 2019 Can we get an F for APC maxcaps, entire vented floors, wordless door shocking, rushing to delta, stealthmalf, lock-and-syphon and combat borg murderbone? They'll be sorely missed.
geeves Posted December 15, 2019 Author Posted December 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Kaed said: Shall we be removing cult and changeling next? Those two round types are so unpopular that it is actually almost impossible for them to start, because no one readies up for any of them anymore. Jokes aside, yes, this is on the roadmap. 4 hours ago, Kaed said: As the mantra goes: Fix, don't remove. "Rework don't remove" has become a server-wide meme for this exact reason. Community wants something removed, someone goes "oh no we'll just fix it", six months later it repeats. Either remove it or actually get working on fixing it wholesale.
Kaed Posted December 15, 2019 Posted December 15, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, geeves said: Jokes aside, yes, this is on the roadmap. "Rework don't remove" has become a server-wide meme for this exact reason. Community wants something removed, someone goes "oh no we'll just fix it", six months later it repeats. Either remove it or actually get working on fixing it wholesale. I can agree with this (and the other game modes) on the caveat you don't actually delete any of the code for any of these round types, on the possibility that someone (like me) wishes to fix it later. And maybe allow it to be voted in, just out of secret. Some of us DO like malf, even as is. I hate extended but you sure as hell won't ever remove that from being voted in, so it's not really fair to take it away entirely just based on majority-based community badfeel. Edited December 15, 2019 by Kaed
Doxxmedearly Posted December 15, 2019 Posted December 15, 2019 I agree with arrow's opinion on how you've implemented it. Removing it from the rotation works fine.
Peppermint Posted December 15, 2019 Posted December 15, 2019 I hate malf. If we can't just totally remove AI, this works too.
Wigglesworth Jones Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 I can't remember the last malf round I've enjoyed. I'm fine with it being removed.
Crozarius Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 I approve, and let me tell you why: Bad gimmicks aside, Malf is not implemented well for our HRP environment. Malf has a very limited number of ways that it can end: Dead AI or Delta. There's no in between, and that removes player choice. The hacking messages don't allow any crew interaction, and right now only serve to give people heads up that it's time to cryo. There's no point to it, and there's nothing that the crew can do other than useleasly pretend to be investigating the hack while waiting for the AI to go loud, or trigger Delta. Only a select few crewmembers get to even interact with the AI, and because of the distance between the AI and the crew there's not even any RP to it. It's always so very hamfisted with the AI going "Submit or Delta'. A lot of crew are not only utterly helpless during Malf because they don't have a part in core rushing, but they're bored brainless. You can't RP with the Malf, because they have a near mobopoly on power. They're always remorseless murder AI and will ignore you or flat out refuse everything you say because it can. It just becomes a mechanical deathmatch where people abandon the semblance of RP in order to rush down the core - because if they don't then it's ALWAYS Delta you're all dead XD.
sonicgotnuked Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 Every game mode is subjected to a meta. Every game mode on the server falls into lack of crew interaction, bad antags, unrobust antags, and murderous antags. I don't see a single problem with malfunction that can be seen with everything else. Yes, APC bombing was an issue, and it's been nerfed. I will remind everyone what makes a 'good round' Good rounds that are memorable and drive a story involves the crew giving it a chance. Malfunction is no exception. The most memorable malfunction rounds come because people give the development a little leeway. There has been countless rounds in which I witnessed that people shrug off development or go "I don't have to listen to that" Mass removing game modes because they don't fall to some specific RP standard will open doors to people looking at other game modes and slating for their removal.
Seeli Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 -1 To removing the gamemode. A rework of Malf abilities so they do not need to rely on delta hacking, so they can rp more, would be much more beneficial to the server.
BurgerBB Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 Like I don't mean to be an asshole, but none of the arguments I've really seen in support of keeping malf are satisfactory. "Removing game modes because they don't meet roleplay standards is a slippery slope into removing other gamemodes!" Slippery slope is not an argument. It's a fallacy in most cases. Saying that we shouldn't remove a bad feature because other features might be removed in the future is strange. "Some MALF rounds can be good!" No one is arguing that all MALF rounds are bad but rather that there is a good majority of malf rounds that are bad to the point where when compared to other game modes, they're significantly worse than normal. I've have participated in good MALF rounds and recognize that it has potential, but the gamemode existing does more harm than good. "Remove don't improve." (or some variation) No contributor or developer wants to improve the gamemode. No one is willing to learn how to code to improve the gamemode. You're expecting something to happen that does not usually happen with gamemodes. Removing MALF from secret rotation will not stop someone from improving the game anyways so there is no point in saying this argument really.
GreenBoi Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 I don't have a full opinion on this, but all I know is that there's a PR to remove both malf and changeling and we've been on a trend of removing things recently. I'm not against malf being removed, and I also like Changeling. I think removing these two gamemodes could start a precedent similar to what happened on bay where most gamemodes were disabled/removed from rotation because people didn't like them, and that made their server very stale (it's literally a traitor marathon). As much as I fucking despise boring or stupid malf rounds, I wouldn't have it any other way because I'd rather have variety with lots of stupidity in-between than a few gamemodes with the same amount of stupidity (removing gamemodes doesn't necessarily make the antagonists better). Just be careful with this.
Gangstafary Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 I enjoy malf rounds. I enjoy being the malf AI, and just yesterday played as one with a gimmick people reported having enjoyed. I must agree with part of the other side in the sense that it may not fit the HRP perspective, imo due to one thing: most cool gimmicks I can think of involve a progressive setting of psychological unrest among the crew that realistically would take some days to happen, not a two hours work shift. When too major things happen in a short span of time, a realistic approach would ensue major psychological crysis, and straight jumping to "flight or fight" response. While on Aurora such approach are (and should be) applauded for the well-polished interpretation, it's not the average, and afaik people don't really consider that an issue, and neither do I. That being said, and trying to stay as impartial as possible since I'm quite biased cause I enjoy malf AI, I don't think removing it would be the ideal solution. Malf AI gimmicks get redone soon and it's a round type that requires of more than usual time involved in gimmick planning, but again I don't consider removing it the best solution.
ben10083 Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 I will start off my saying that I do not agree with this suggestion, and will counter the points raised to favor it. "Malf Rounds are usually bad" This is extremely subjective. It is simply foolish to expect a 'perfect' game where everyone is happy. You see this all the times with admin events. There will always be people you do not please, and this is true for all antag gamemodes as well. "All games either end in delta ai or dead ai" This argument doesn't really hold water. If you simplify stuff to such an extent you can say this about literally any game-mode. (Example: Revolution "Either Revs or Loyalists win" Merc "Either Mercs win or they die/captured") Not to mention, there has been many maf rounds where a delta isnt used, or is used as a means to unlock abilities rather tham nuke the station "Improve is no longer feasible" It is clear that there is a sizable part of the community that likes Malf, as it is commonly a round that people engage in, rather than some gamemodes that have periods of some people cryoing. People don;t want things removed people they see potential, and they are intrigued by the concept the game-mode presents.
Natiform Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) i gotta agree with the points ben raised. and also, as a HRP server, if a round has to have conflict in order for you to enjoy it... i dunno, that seems a little counterintuitive. you have to make your fun. it’s a role playing server. also, like, a lot of the rounds of MALF that i enjoyed were ones where neither of the things predicted, wiping the AI or delta, happened at all because the MALF came up with a fun (and peaceful- peaceful does not always mean bad, folks) way to involve everyone in the station. there’s multiple threads up right now that are calling for removal of stuff from the server. i know people on the forums like to scream about the meme that is “improve, not remove” and how it’s “””””malicious”””” but how is removing everything that some folks don’t like better? it is just a game, after all. if there’s something other people enjoy but you don’t, well, maybe take a step back and do something else for a little while. editing to add: if people really hate it that much, i wouldn’t see the problem in just making the game type less common. Edited December 16, 2019 by Natiform
Cnaym Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 8 hours ago, Natiform said: editing to add: if people really hate it that much, i wouldn’t see the problem in just making the game type less common. Alb did pretty much that. Voting against the removal. I will try to formulate this as polite as I can, but may fail due to the uh... sentence structure and language barrier: The roundtype malf depends on a lot of factors. AI / Malf knowledge and creativity. Gimmik perception and reaction to it. The number and skill level of borgs and IPCs. The number of players and sometimes even the staff online. The malf rounds usually die with the playerbase deciding to cryo at the first malf sign or ignoring the gimmik altogether. Strong recent example here would be "oh earth has blown up, buhu, nobody cares". The malf almost never wins. Greentext < Salt in OOC after the round. A huge step to increase the enjoyment generated by malf would be to increase the playerbases involvment during the round. Fake PDA messages to lure people somewhere, give the AI a voicechanger, we had a round where the malf had an admin as Ninja stalk the tunnels working like an advanced hologram that could just flash folks. Maybe giving the stationbounds and hacked IPCs access to AooC since that could be used to coordinate and talk about the gimmik. I would also propose a warning message when enabling malf: Something like "This gamemode super hard, staff will make use of blacklist if you fuck this up, please play borg and AI a lot before jumping into this." couple with use of said blacklist (giving a bad malf a week off would not even be enough imho. AI needs a ton of playtime until someone is able to handle it as malf.)
Crozarius Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Cnaym said: The malf rounds usually die with the playerbase deciding to cryo at the first malf sign or ignoring the gimmik altogether. Yes! The fact that so many people outright cryo at the first sign of Malf should tell you something. People, generally speaking, do not enjoy Malf in its current state. 1 hour ago, Cnaym said: I would also propose a warning message when enabling malf: Something like "This gamemode super hard, staff will make use of blacklist if you fuck this up, please play borg and AI a lot before jumping into this." couple with use of said blacklist (giving a bad malf a week off would not even be enough imho. AI needs a ton of playtime until someone is able to handle it as malf.) I've already talked about this before and every time I've been knocked back. I'd love for people who do awful antag rounds like total stealth-vamp extended, 2 hour Delta AI, stealth-sting/nothing-but-hallucination-sting-spam Changeling etc to be antag banned, but the reality is that the administration team aren't willing to enforce that for some reason. 1 hour ago, Cnaym said: A huge step to increase the enjoyment generated by malf would be to increase the playerbases involvment during the round. Yes, and for that there needs to be a developer/coder who wants to work on Malf and rework it. It should be removed *for now* because it's bad in its current state. Hell, maybe it'll get reworked faster *because* it gets removed, because a developer/coder wants it back. Rework-not-remove is apathy.
BurgerBB Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 Honestly make a poll. Both sides are saying "most people like malf" or "most people hate malf".
niennab Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 I've had some great malf rounds as well as miserable malf rounds but I would never consider removing the mode outright. It is quite possibly the most DM style mode we have, granting the malf player a wealth of tools in order to weave a story. Moreover, I've found malf rounds, when they're good, tend to be the most creative inclined gimmicks. Moreover for IPCs, malf rounds are often one of the few round types where IPCs are considered as apart of the drama. I have found they are often neglected during changeling and vampire for very obvious reasons. Nonetheless, we have seen great AI players also suggest changes, why not implement those instead of removing the mode outright?
Xelnagahunter Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, niennab said: Nonetheless, we have seen great AI players also suggest changes, why not implement those instead of removing the mode outright? While I am against the removal of the mode as well, even from secret, this is the very point people for removing it are arguing. Who's gonna do it? If it is kept for this reason alone, in 6 months when no one has done anything about it, they still have a gamemode they disagree with and people will make this argument all over again. I sympathize with that thought process and I'm willing to see it removed from secret at the very most, just until someone does get around to doing it. As was mentioned prior: 2 hours ago, Crozarius said: Hell, maybe it'll get reworked faster *because* it gets removed, because a developer/coder wants it back.
Shenaanigans Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 I am not particularly attached to malf as a game mode, and can personally say that I have had more annoyingly poor rounds of this type than anything good, but outright removing the mode still doesn't sit quite right with me. Mostly because of the fact that it has been established in the proposal that other game modes would follow and I really don't think that stripping out a bunch of them because some are considered prone to "bland" or "annoying" rounds is the path to take. Sometimes things are un-salvageable and better off removed, yes, but if multiple rounds are taken out doesn't that trend the server towards being more same-ish? You're removing base possibilities for round type and chucking out entirely coded modes before any attempt at constructive changes are made. I would also agree that this is in fact a "slippery slope". Because it has been stated that removing malf would likely be followed by removing other round types.
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